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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Vantage 400 bead
- - By rcwelding (***) Date 01-28-2011 02:35
Man I dread to even start this thread but here it go's ..

   So I have been running some pipe test coupons just to refine my skills... I was practicing that 7018 6G open root test and I had a terrible time getting the bead flat inside on the bottom but I finally got it close.. It kept falling down and being concave... Now I flipped over to 5p+ root and I have the same problem with the bottom but am getting it better...

   Now here is where the can of worms gets blown wide open..!!  I borrowed a friends Redface because I was convinced that I was just a crappy welder and I wanted to try another machine...  Well the 7018 root and the 5p+ root are just rolling in as pretty as can be... 

  I love this Vantage like life itself...!! So what the *@!! can I do to get it to bead better...  It fill's and caps like a dream but the bead is giving me heck..!!

   I have run it on downhill pipe I run it in CC stick, arc force from one end to the other and just the bottom part of the bead gives me heck..

   Any other suggestions..??  I have no intentions of getting rid of this machine but it sure was a bummer to see that bead role in so nice and easy with that Redface..!!

  Thanks

   RC
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 02:43 Edited 01-28-2011 02:46
Your too hot on the bottom. I know you have heard this and read this on here before. Several have said it  "It's all about finding your sweet spot" Your machine will weld as good as any out there. You just have to find your spot. The Vantage welds a little different. However, Once you master it, nothing else will touch it
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 01-28-2011 03:40
Some times it is hard to be scientific when doing comparison tests. For instance. Are you sure the EXACT same gap and fit up (hi-lo) were used on both welds? Several thousandths of an inch difference in gap can be the same as changing your heat by a few amps. Unless you used filler gauges, to check it, you'd never know.
You are using 2 different machines and the DC is not the same. You can't expect two different cars to corner the same.
I  agree with Cactus, it's not the machine.
Keep playing with the settings, in small increments.
Once you get the hang of it as it were, you'll find you are making minor adjustments in technique subconsciously.
Nothing beads like a Sa 200. They are way too user friendly in that department
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 01-29-2011 01:05
I am welding 8in pipe 1/2 wall 1/8 land 1/8 gap...  1/8 5p+

  Is it a few thousandths off..??  Im sure it is..!! I am hand beveling the pipe and Red Necking my gap with some 1/8 rod as spacers.. Tacking up, pulling my spacers ( ROD ) out then welding it up..

  I was working today and didn't get a chance to run some more tests.. I'm running my bead between 90 and 95 amps with my arc force around -2...  The bead is just as pretty and clean as can be, the bottom just has a slight dish..!!  I do run it in slow though..!!  I Will try to speed it up and see what happens..

   Odd thing is I ran a bunch of 5in pipe 3/8 wall and I had no problem with the bead just with the 8in... The 8in is some scrap I picked up in the junk yard... I have no clue what grade the pipe is but it had some nasty oil sludge and rust in the bottom that I cleaned out before I started..

  My buddy is off on a job so I wont get to play with his redface again for a while..

  I fill and cap 7018 at 115 amps -2 and it just roles in so nice and sooth..

  I don't care how nice the redface welds I'm not getting rid of this Vantage..!!  I love the machine I just have to dial it in...

  Since my only problem with it is on the bottom I think I'm going to set up some 2ft long 1/2 plate over head till I get that root to pop up where it supposed to be..

   I will try to post some pictures if I get a chance.. My phone takes crummy pictures so they wont be very clear but at least you guys can see what I'm getting..

  Thaks for the help..

  RC
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 01-29-2011 03:23
RC,
As mentioned by myself and others, the pure DC machines are "user friendly". Remember, make small adjustments. That sweet spot will come to you evetually.
I certainly would not recommend selling the Vantage. For one, it is a multiprocess rig which can be very beneficial for diversity of projects and materials. Coupled with an LN 25, a Hi-Freq unit, and nothing is beyond your bidding capabilities.
Since you seem to be confident in your technique and ability to lay in a root, it serves you no purpose to practice with your friends Red Face. When you do get the bells and whistles dialed in, it will be a beautiful moment.
For me, your gap and land is a bit much. With that size pipe, gap and land, I would use 5/32" rod. When I learned, it was always nickel gap and land...3/32", with 1/8" rod.. The bigger the gap, the colder you set the amps.
Also, I would put the loosesed gap topside and tight on the bottom.
That' just me...everyone is different.
Tomorrow, you'll be slicken it in there like a wedding band.
Parent - - By okwelder82 (***) Date 01-28-2011 04:42
Cactus and I Rarely agree about things and I rouse him a lot about the Vantage welder but he is right. From the people I have talked to that run Vantages you just have to keep playing with it until you find the right setting that works for you. They just dont seem to be quite as forgiving as other machines.
Parent - - By weaver (***) Date 01-28-2011 04:51
cactus is right, My machine is very touchy when I am beading in, It is ALL about the sweet spot, enough so that I write down the perfect amps on the inside of my box.. Keep after it and you will get it. lh roots are not hard once you get the hang of it. kind regards shannon
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-28-2011 12:39
The sweet spot, I've moved my dial only about 2 amps(maybe) at a time, just barely move the dial and have it land right where when your running the bead you say, "ahhh, yeah, there it is". Done this many times on shop machines as well, just barely turn the knob and there it is. I had my ranger all figured out and memorized then got the Sa250, back to class and thought I had 6010's figured out til I got out on some long length of pipe, ended up adjusting up.
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 01-28-2011 16:48
RC, my Vantage does a nice job with 5p+ on beads. You may need to post more info on pipe diameter, wall, space and land. In addition to what the others have added to much gap and most important to slow travel speed will cause concavity on the bottom. After I hit the break over I go as fast as I can at times the key hole doesn't look as though it's going to fill in I'm going so fast, but it does.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 17:31
This is all true. Any decent welder can make a decent bead with just about any machine. But why fight that hard. The Disavantage is like going to work with a lazy helper. I just about scraped mine for junk iron prices. I mean yeah they have alot of bells and whistles but at then end of the day why fight a machine that cant perform. I want a machine that makes my job easier just like the redface you welded with. So I traded my disavantage off for a beautiful 250 D with an air cooled diesel motor and I love it. I still have my ac capabilities 120 and 220. And someone on here correct me if I am wrong but I beileve it has the same armature and windings as an SA200. I found it to be a great balance between a 300d and a 200d as far as features example ac current and stacks iron like a 200. I'm just saying yes all these people are right but maybe you should be more open to trading your machine for something that suits you better. You'll be alot happier camper at the end of of a long work day if your not fighting with your machine all day.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 17:48
And yes Cactus your right " Nothing else will touch it" I would'nt touch one of those machines standing twelve foot away with my fat maxx tape measure :)
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 17:57 Edited 01-28-2011 18:00
Stan, It helps when you know HOW to Weld. But hey, I understand. Sometimes there are those few who just need a crutch !   LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!  We will see next week when I am runnung my nice Heater and my Grinder WHILE I weld. I'll remember that when you are shivering and wanting to borrow a 110 socket.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 19:29
Cactus I am just wondering if you remmber where the start switch is on that disadvantage? I mean what do you got on that thing now 100hrs or so? I got all the AC power I need on my machine but thanks for the offer of lending me one of your sockets.  Hey Cactus I think we should  solve this debate once and for all when I come down to there to weld next to you here next week.  We'll post the results on here. We can even post the pictures of you digging a hole 7ft deep and you laying that machine to rest in its grave and some pictures of you welding with that beautiful girl of mine named 250D.. LOL.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 19:36
It has 300 Hours ! Thank You ! Rick Harnish and Shad put some on it as well as some other guys I know. As far as the start button. It is voice activated. I just walk up and say "Start" and it fires right off. Most of the time when I weld, I just put a rod in the Stinger and throw it at whatever I am working on. It does the rest! As far as having a weld contest ? I really didn't plan on getting dirty ! Besides, I need you to finish the Job. I dont need you running around being butthurt all week.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 20:01 Edited 01-28-2011 20:04
Lmao!!! I didn't mean we needed to have a weld contest Cactus that 250d does the talking for me. I think that you're just nervous about wraping your hands around the stinger of that beautiful welder of mine and then youll have to retract everything you've praised about the disadvantage. But dont worry I know it will be like touching a naked girl for the first time but she'll treat ya right I promise ya. I mean massage your shoulder while your welding. Starch your shirts on break. She even will bring you a moon pie and a dr pepper when your spooling up. Just to warn ya she ain't for sell so dont go gettin any ideas.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 20:20
Read this post. It's the normal reaction when running my machine

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=186855;hl=rick%20harnish%20and%20a%20vantage
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 20:38
yeah I read the post Rick Harnish said "Vantage would do in a pinch" quote unquote. I think that was a superimposed picture of Rick with a fishing pole in one hand.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 20:40
Rick is ALWAYS in a Pinch !
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 20:51
I bet Rick is really embarrased of that picture. It kinda like being caught with your pants down on the front cover of the national enquirer.   lol
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 21:08
I has one on his truck ! He just put a 300D cover on it
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 21:14
Well I know if I had a Disadvantage on my truck I would atleast put a Miller Bobcat cover on it. At least I would look somewhat like I was a rig welder with a real machine.
Parent - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 21:17
ohh that was way below the belt. Not sure how to retract a post. But I would if I could. Well maybe.....
Parent - - By NMWELDING (**) Date 01-28-2011 21:21
Stanantanio
I read your response a few times about the Vantage. I have a 300 Vantage,it seems fine, I don`t do a lot of pipe with it though. The point I wanted to make and I`ve said it a few times on here,is that a friend of mine is a pipeline welder in a local here in Michigan,and has been a pipeliner for over 20 years. He has a SA-200 that was his main machine.He said he welded with a Vantage 300 a number of times at work[used a buddies]before he purchased the 300 Vantage. And as I said he is a darn good pipe welder,and he said the Vantage lays a bead on pipe every bit as good as his SA-200. Thats what he runs now a Vantage 300. If you would have found the sweet spot as others mentioned I`m sure you would like it too. They seem to be a very good machine. I have a Classic 3 which is supposed to be a great pipe welder. I see no difference in the Vantage when compared to the Classic 3. I`m not trying to ruffle any feathers here but maybe you just need more practice on pipe with the Vantage to find the sweet spot, all machines have them.
Parent - - By stanantonio Date 01-28-2011 21:47
NMWELDING I hear exactly what your saying. I think it would be interesting to see a bunch of us welders get together with all kinds of machines from disadvantages to 300's to 200's and pipe pros. and take turns welding coupons with them and then have them x-rayed and then maybe we as a whole could really figure where machines excell better than others. Kinda like a consumer report. I dunno maybe we can get AWS in on this and make it happen. Then there would be less guessing in the dark of what machine per application or you could have a better basis of which machine to buy. Base it off bead profile, contaminates deposited in the weld, fuel consumption, actuall amerpage and so on. So far I've owned a SA200 a 07 vantage A 08 200D and a 96 250D.  I used to  just for fun, I had some 1/4 " Jet rod laying around the shop this is how I used to blow the carbon deposits outta my machine if I had'nt worked them very hard. The vantage 300 would have a hard time holding a steady arc at max and at the same time my 08 200D would burn it. I know alot of it is just preference but would it not be nice to have some harder facts back by aws. I dont know just a thought.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 22:48
Thats as big as you could run ? 1/4" Jet ?     I can run 2 of those at once !!
Parent - - By weaver (***) Date 01-28-2011 23:24
I wanna get in on that weld-off, but only if it's -40 below and at nite..lol
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 23:50
You have to get a Machine First !!! We will test all machines prior to welding. And your Bobcat has obviously had some Steroids !
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 01-28-2011 22:46
YEAH !!!! What He Said !!!!!
Parent - By tim105 (**) Date 01-29-2011 03:44
I have a 2007 vantage 300 with over 4500 hours on it. When I bought it, I did not put it on a load bank, 95% of my welds are xray and since 2007, I did get two repairs one was for porosity and the other one I did not feather my tack on a 2 inch pipe. both of those were my fault.
I don't care what you guys call the vantage, but as far as machines go you won't see me with another machine. When this one dies, I will have another vantage on my truck.
It will start at -30 without a problem. It can run a microwave, coffee pot, grinder and still weld.
All of that is beside the point, THE best machine to have is the one making you money.
- - By Rig Hand (***) Date 01-28-2011 23:50
I had a 68 sa200 for a few years and when it shot craps I bought a Vantage 400. I've had it for 2 years, but I didn't really like the way it ran downhill. So I bought a 85' SA-250 this summer, I ran the 250 all summer and fall, I loved it. It caps like a dream... well everything is like a wet dream with this machine :) STACKS IRON in piles. Now that the weather as cooled off and the work has slowed down I've put the Vantage back on for the winter months. After running for a couple days I noticed that the Vantage wasn't so bad, I just needed to turn down the arc force and the heat a little, but I don't think I would have figured that out had I not bought the 250.

To make my point, I've had a redface, a sa-250 and a Vantage 400. The redface welded great, but it drank fuel and had no AC power. If I had to leave tomorrow to go mainlining the 250 would be back on the truck. But, as far a general fabrication of pipe or plate uphill and downhill I'd pick the Vantage. I am itching to try a pipe pro tho.
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 02-01-2011 03:07
I would just like to clear the record here. I had just fired the .410 pistol Cactus had in his buggy when he took that picture. I wasnt perfectly sure what he intended to do with the next shell. Being out there in the middle of nothing at his place, I grinned and played nice!
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 02-01-2011 19:26
Rick I think the only way to combat that photo is to go find a PipePro somewhere and take a picture in front of it then put a caption under the picture saying...  For the right price I will stand in front of any machine...

  Just don't let him snap a picture of you using that Vantage or you will never live it down..!! LOL..!!

  Thanks for the advice everyone... I tweaked everything a bit... Land, heat, arc force but the biggest thing was my bevel and rod angle and got that bead going in like glass... I took pictures but they didn't turn out worth a darn so I didn't post them...

  Man I love this machine... It mite not be everyone's favorite and there may be better welders out there but I will find a way to suffer through ownership of it for a while..LOL..!!

  Thanks again everyone..!!

   RC
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Vantage 400 bead

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