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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Prevailing wage and fringe
- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-29-2011 15:02
Maybe somebody here could help clear up things for me. I'd call the state folks but it's saturday and trying to get this bid in Monday.

Bidding gub'ment job, prevailing wage. I going to pick up a welder and a laborer-skilled but there is no sense in me hiring two full time guys so I can lay them off when the job is finished. So, I've talked to a construction staffing agent, good for the welder and the laborer because they'll make some good money at least if only for a few weeks. Guy told me their welders make $12/hour so I laughed and thought this guy will be thrilled.

Anyhow, I have what I need from the states site as far as prevailing wage for an ironworker and laborer class A. I remember as an employee seeing "fringe". From internet research fringe is for benefits or extra money in the guys pocket. What I'm trying to figure out is do I pay them fringe if they are staffing agency employees? I guess the fringe is what I'm confused about, I know I saw a scale last year at the job I worked and still trying to find something for the state.

Any help/info would be appreciated!!

Shawn
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-29-2011 15:06
Ok, found this site....

http://www.gpo.gov/davisbacon/allstates.html

found fringe, now do I pay it? Not being cheap, just want to be right, not cheat the potential guys I might be working with, good chance for them to make good money and or shoot myself in the foot on a bid and find out later with fines that I needed to pay it.
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-29-2011 15:45
pretty sure you have to pay the iron workers total package IE  Wages, medical,vacation,pension.  is this welderr going to be certified
if he's been working for 12.oo hr   Good luck  Joe
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-29-2011 16:22
Not only do you have to pay the fringe, you have to certify to the government you are paying this to the employee. The fringe includes insurance, health, unemployment, SS, etc. It is up to you to prove the fringes are paid. Paying SS is included in fringes.
If prevailing is 14 with a 9 fringe you have to pay the employee $23. And that has to be in the employee pocket. Your overhead and profit will be above that. If your overhead is 8 you are up to 31 and then 15% profit you are at 36 per hour for the arm.  Also be aware of subsistence.
You will sign this is paid. If you go through a staffing company you need to be sure they can give you a certified payroll. If you are using a local staffing company that is a Rent-a-Drunk outfit when you get audited, .gov will take it out of your hide.  There are fines and penalties  that will be added to what you have to dig up. .gov will take your stuff away, sell it and give the money to the employee.
If you are using rig welders, then you will be paying way above prevailing as I have not seen a PW rate for a rig welder. But then you get into knowing what your competitor's are paying. Some contractors pay PW on the arm and the rest goes on the machine. What that saves is not having to pay fringes on the machine. I have a friend doing .gov with a rig and he is on a job where PW is $28 and he is getting 35 on the machine and 125 sub. He gets a W2 on the wages, 1099 on the machine but not the sub. The company he works for changes the PW and sub depending on where he is working but the machine stays the same. All he is required to furnish is the truck, fuel, machine, cutting torches and hoses. The contractor he works for has good health insurance, excellent 401K with match and takes really good care of him and the other welders they use.
Keep in mind if you are not the prime on the job then the sub you are working for is marking up what you are charging, the company they are working for is marking it up and the prime is marking that up. What sucx is the bigger fish are not responsible for certifying on a PW job. Just the schmuck hiring the workers.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-29-2011 16:47
Thanks Kahunna, Joe. It's just handrail but lots of it, inside the building. Initially I wanted to build it offsite but measurements of the existing handrail I have to match and stack the new rail on top of are, well, not so consistent. I planned on me doing all of the 1/8" welding as far as the frame, attachments to the existing and cutting the "mig" welder loose on doing the in fill, 3/4" x 16 gauge square tube. Figure I do the frame, he follows behind, laborer downstairs cutting off pieces we call out to him.

I'd like to hire a guy or two myself but with me needing to be on the job I will not have time to mess with payroll, paychecks, computer blah, blah.

Fringe for 2011-2012 is 19.92, fringe info I found is from last year and shows 9.85. This is a local company and has good references but I understand what your saying. It's my job to dot the "i's" and cross my "t's" cause the government won't care about the where I got the guys from! LoL! I think the $12 an hour for a welder is just what the economy locally negotiates. I've talked to a few places around here about jobs etc a few years ago and that seems about what I was hearing. I think good welders that I know that work at the Cat dealer only make about $17.50. Little town of maybe 10k around here, some industry, lots of car stuff, places associated with Nissan/Honda/GM.....well, used to be GM, not so much anymore.
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 01-30-2011 04:38
Talk to Dwayne Cactus Jones.  He knows how to hire federal prevailing wage welders for $14.26 and hour with no fringe bennies at all.
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 01-30-2011 06:53
Part (B) Cactus may have the know how but I dont remeber him saying that he used that as a pay rate.  Just like you have the ability to contribute useful information to this forum but you choose not to..  Dont screw up Shawns thread too..!!
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 01-30-2011 07:29
Cummins, The P.W. rate that you are going to pay for is the same rate as a Union I.W., in the W. Pa. area its' $30.00 in the "envelope" and $20.00 to the "hall"(fringes) that comes to $50.00/hr.. You can get an I.W. apprentice for about 1/2 that rate to use as your "laborer", now the bad news. You can't work with these guys, (only supervise). If you want to work with the people YOU hire, your back to Nonunion. Whoever you hire "nonunion" you MUST pay the total P.W. rate in CASH (Hrly. rate plus fringe rate) The good news here is YOU can do actual work on the job, and pay 1 man I.W. rate and 1 man Laborer rate. Where do you find these guys?????? "Good luck", mostly from ad's in local paper , you have to find a SKILLED man that is layed off from a job and will work for you until the job market gets better and he can find a steady job. Also the state Unemployment office will post a opening if you give them the info.. As far as employment agencys( a.k.a. rent a drunk, EVERY person I've hired thru there has a "problem"). FROM: PITTSBURGH knocking on SEVENS DOOR Dem' STILERS!!!!!!!!!
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-30-2011 13:22
I worked for one of those places!! Hehehe!!! Seriously...., story(short) goes, add for welder. I answer, ask guy(email) what kind of welding? emails back, "pipe"....about like that, just pipe. I email back and say, "stainless, carbon steel, aluminum???" He emails back, "carbon steel"....literally two words in an email. I email again thinking, wtf? I ask, is this ASME which would be uphill, 6010 or tig root with 7018, or tig all out? or downhill, API 6010? He emailed back, come on in. I got picked up by a mechanical company worked two jobs thru staffing agent. Then worked as an employee for a job, now I do contract work for them. On the first job I was under the gun, said they went thru 5 welders out there that said they could weld, they never hired another after me.(ok, here's my exhaling on fingernails and polishing on shirt moment..hehe)

Don't want to pick up an "employee" for my company, could save money on the staff agent but hate to lay a guy off after a two week job, not worth the hassle and don't know when I'd find time to do payroll, etc, etc and could not offer a guy bennies. Heck, agent asked "what are you looking for, a 1 day thing?" I said no, about two weeks, he was shocked, "Really!" he said. This is truely a learning experience, glad it's finally come along. I didn't know that about the Union guys Smooth, not working with them, only supervise. I don't know if I could do that all day long without getting bored. This job is by no means huge and has been referred to as "small" as it may be, for me.....it's a biggy!! LoL! Guess it's all about breaking down the barriers. Thanks for all the comments and help!! 100% appreciated!

Shawn
Parent - By strother (***) Date 01-30-2011 22:15
Pretty interesting link.    Welders receive rate prescribed for the craft performing operation to which welding is incidental. I looked at the Counties that I normaly work. Some counties list very few crafts . Electrician , Carpenter, Plumber . Others include Ironworker ,Millwright, Mechanic . My question is what if the welding that you are doing does not easily fall under the crafts listed for that county? For instance my home county in Georgia , Wilkes county does not list Ironworker, Millwright or any other craft that you would expect welding to be incidental to. So what do handrails fall under ? I may be doing handrails in the morning and welding on an excavator after lunch maybe for the same customer in two different counties or two different customers in the same county. I may go from a gov. job to a non gov. job for the same customer. If I have a welder or helper working for me I would have to constantly change their pay or pay them enough to cover the highest paid craft they might be working under... Damn I'm glad I don't have employees any more because I would have to hire another one just to keep up with all this BULL SH!T.   BTW Shawn , Good luck on the bid!
Parent - - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 01-30-2011 11:29
good thread so far... Thanks for all the knowledge guys!!! Good Luck Shawn! I've been watching your progress over the years and you seem to be "on the ball".
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-30-2011 11:37
Shawn if you get the job why not post on here to find someone you might get lucky
and find a good man in between projects to lend a hand
Parent - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 01-30-2011 11:41
excellent idea!!!
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-30-2011 13:04
I was about to do just that Joe, try and bypass a "rent a welder" and use a rig welder. When crunching the numbers I am going to end up paying about as much for a rent a welder as I would a rig welder, well rig welder a bit more but with that comes the I don't have to hassle with an extra machine, his lunch, breaks(Great advise!! Thank you again! You know who you are!)
Rolling up gear at the end of the day or worry if the rent a welder can actually weld or not.

I know a guy local who has helped me out, gonna get with him and hash out the details.
- - By awspartb (***) Date 01-31-2011 23:51 Edited 02-01-2011 00:31
Why not just call the Union hall, hire the guys for the job and then lay them off never to be seen again??  It would save you a lot of paperwork, that's for sure.
The time, effort, paperwork, etc that you guys spend to get around the prevailing wage rules would pay for itself if you just hired union hands to begin with. 

Unless you are are trying to ....................fill in the blanks yourself.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-01-2011 01:11
In order to Hire from the "Hall", you have to become Signatory. When you do that, You cannot work on or Bid on Non-union Jobs. And when you are in a new place. The Union BA will send out his Buddies and pretty much "Strong Arm" the Job. Unless you are in a STRONG union State. And you are going to continue working ONLY Union Contracts. Its not worth it. That is why so many Union Workers are out of Work ! Union Ain't what it used to be. For the Contractor or the Worker. And Small Contracts are Damn sure not worth it !
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 02-01-2011 01:18 Edited 02-01-2011 01:21
Hey Cactus, maybe you can suggest how he can get away with paying $14.26 an hour for welders on a Federal prevailing wage job like the one you are running on the Louisanna Flood gate project? 

Share your secrets?  Make sure you show him your expensive toys so he knows what's at the end of the rainbow when all that taxpayer money come a rollin in.  thanks
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-01-2011 01:20
I already told him. See, us Non-Union guys are always one step ahead of you. Remember, Part B is first Loser !
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 02-01-2011 01:25
The U.S. Taxpayer thanks you Cactus.  Let's hope the GAO thanks you as well.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-01-2011 01:32
You SHOULD thank me ! I am paying for part of your food stamps.
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 02-01-2011 01:28
awspartb:

"I don't have a rig.  I live like a human.  Not some traveling gypsy, shot of whiskey for lunch, crack smoking, buy a prostitute and get out of town fast before the law catches up with you bum."

How did you get to meet cactus thought you didn't travel??   still waiting for that address.......
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-01-2011 01:31
I have Never Met Him !!!! He just runs his unemployed fingers on the Keyboard
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 02-01-2011 01:38
I've noticed!!  I been running beads for 11 months turn the computer back on and it's the same jackwagon runnin off at the mouth as when i last posted.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 02-01-2011 01:43
Maybe I should try some RAID Ant & Roach Killer ?
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 02-01-2011 04:53
Awspartb, I for the life of me CAN'T find ANY posts that Cactus claimed or implied he pays $ 14.26/hr. for the rig welders he's using!!!!! I've read $55.00/hr. for a furnished rig which is a fair rate and can pass any P.W. requirements down SOUTH. Now in NY. / Long Island/ Mannhattan district its $80.00/hr. when I worked there 2 yrs. ago. BUT thats in NY/east coast. I worked there on 2 jobs and the labors attitude stinks, I WILL NOT ever do business where the union/labor has the attitude of " yeah, we're screwin' you and theres NOTHING you can do about it" From :Sixburgh "KNOCKIN' ON SEVENS DOOR" dem' STILERS
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Prevailing wage and fringe

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