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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / maximum bead width
- - By david rutter Date 02-02-2011 18:45
Does anyone know what the maximum bead width is for SMAW using 1/8th rods? I thought it was 5 times the diameter of the wire. Does D1.1 mention this and where to find it?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-02-2011 18:48
David,

D1.1 clause 5 has some language about weld size..  You can find this through indexing.

As far as the width of a weaved SMAW bead?  D1.1 is silent.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-02-2011 19:00
The oil company specs I work with have a specific limit.  It is 3 times the electrode dia or 10mm.  But that does not come from D1.1 as far as I know.
Parent - By ironsport (*) Date 02-02-2011 19:26 Edited 02-05-2011 13:11
ive heard 3-6 times ill tend to lean toward the smaller numberas gorilla weaves look like dung and the more weavin the more likely u will trap trash - the diameter of electrode that is.it realy depends on the code your workin with and what the inspector gods got in there head what they want to see i do know there a bit less forgivin on the higher content chromium alloys
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 02-02-2011 20:11
I was taught three times but think I have heard 4 times the diameter of the rod diameter. I agree with the gorilla welds statement, I'd stick with the three times. Can't say about D1.1 though, I'm sure members much wiser and more knowledgeable than I will give a more definite answer though. I've seen cap welds using 1/8" 7018 that are 1" wide!!! Even at 4 times the width that's a bit over!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-02-2011 22:36
Per D1.1-2010, the maximum size of a single pass fillet in the vertical position is 1/2 inch. the maximum size low hydrogen electrode is 5/32 inch.

A few quick calculations indicates the width of weld face of the single pass fillet weld is 0.707 inches. Dividing that by 5/32 inch results in 4.2, indicating it is perfectly acceptable to weave 4 times the diameter of the electrode.

I agree with the previous response that indicates AWS D1.1 is silent on the subject. No limitations are provided for the width of a weld layer when welding a grooved joint with low hydrogen electrode. There are limitations listed for other welding processes, but nothing for SMAW.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 02-03-2011 10:39
david rutter
A lot of replies have been speculating your question.
But without more information that is all it is.

A Welder is qualified by a test, the test is done to a WPS, this allows the welder to weld the process, position limitations, material thickness limitations, and progression as qualified.
You mention AWS D1.1 but you made no mention of the specifics.
My first question is does the weld have a wps?
If it does is it a prequalified wps?
What type of weld, Grove or fillet?
Single Pass or multi-pass,
If it is a filet weld,single pass, then to be prequalifiable  in AWS D1.1 2002 (what I have here at the house) Clause 3.7.3.2
Single pass fillet welds up to the following sizes may be made using any of the filler metals for group II base metals.
It gives 1/4" for SMAW and 5/16" for SAW, GMAW, FCAW.

Now one or two things to remember is You can make a weld as wide as you want or are capable of as long as you can:
qualify it through testing to the code using
you get the E.O.R.'s blessing.

But just some old code and my ¢¢'s

Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 02-06-2011 06:08
I know this doesn't answer your question, but it is at least a little related...

I have seen alot of destructive SMAW tests on 1" plate fail due to lack of fusion when guys ran vertical stringers.  Particularly troublesome was LOF to the bevel face.

I even saw one guy actually quite welding permanently over the problem.  He failed 4 consecutive vertical tests if memory serves correctly.  The welds looked great going in - nice flat straight stringers, as nice looking as I have ever seen.  But he had to turn the current down so low to get the nice appearance that he kept failing the bend test due to LOF.  After each test I urged him to consider trying my techniques.  He refused, convinced stringers were a superior method.  After the last failure he actually went in to another trade, swearing he must just not have been meant to be a welder.

It seems that some guys have been trained that stringers were a must, at all times.  So then they jump on heavy plate with 1/8" rod and have fusion problems. 

I have asked these guys why they chose to weld stringers, when the welding procedure clearly did not require it.  They all said that is how they were trained and required to do it, since it is the "right way" to do it.

I also have encouraged guys to use 5/32" inch rods for fill work on vertical tests on 1" plate but almost no takers.  Evidently not too many have been trained with them.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-06-2011 07:29
Blaster,
I too have seen  destructive SMAW tests on 1" plate fail due to lack of fusion when guys ran vertical WEAVES.
Many WPS's will restrict heat input and therefore rule out most SMAW weave beads in excess of 3 or 4 electrode diameters when other parameters are met.
I can't think of an incident where I've seen a welder was failed using stringer beads that passed all NDE and or destructive tests.
If a test candidate is proficient in that process (SMAW in this discussion), material and position, it should not matter whether they use 3/32" or 3/16" electrode on a 3G groove on 1" plate.

Welding technique is often dependent upon the specs, shop rules, conditions, supervision, and QC requirements. I have been in many shops where the WPS restricts bead width, i.e. stringers only.
I hate to sound callous, but...
It has been said that the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake and expecting different results.
"I even saw one guy actually quite welding permanently over the problem.  He failed 4 consecutive vertical tests if memory serves correctly.  The welds looked great going in - nice flat straight stringers, as nice looking as I have ever seen.  But he had to turn the current down so low to get the nice appearance...." This individual was obviously out of his comfort zone, and practicing the aforementioned insanity definition because he failed 4 times!
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 02-06-2011 19:31
Superflux - I totally agree.  If a welder knows what he is doing he can be successful with any electrode diameter and either weaves or stringers on this joint.  But for any set of circumstances there are techniques that will tend to be more forgiving of those who are marginally skilled or inexperienced.  I don't think there is anything wrong with stringers.  I prefer them for overhead, horizontal, and flat welding, and some work on thinner materials vertical. 

The downside to stringers though for this particular set of circumstances is heavy plate 3G, fairly tight groove, small rod, and welders who lack the skill to prevent excessive convexity with stringers unless they turn the current down excessively low.  My point was, since the WPS we were using allowed it, it would have made since for the guys to turn it up 20 amps or so even if they had to spread the weld out to keep it reasonably flat.  That would have been more forgiving given their experience and skill level. 

I can't think of an incident where a welder was failed using stringer beads that passed all NDE and or destructive testing either.  (?)  ; )
- - By crahner (**) Date 02-03-2011 02:14
I used .045 nr-211 for a 3g and 4g test and weaved all passes, with the cap being 7/8
Parent - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 02-03-2011 04:39
I had a engineer tell my guys they couldnt do 1/4 fillets with 1/8 7018s. had to open the 5/32s.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 02-03-2011 22:03
That's a pretty good trick to weave .045 4g.  I usually do a very slight weave on the root but stringer the rest of the way out for heat control.
Parent - By crahner (**) Date 02-04-2011 02:39
It wasnt particularly easy, and I was leaning toward stringers, but the cwi recommended weave, and lo and behold they passed.  I was running my ln 25 off my 1975 cc only big 40.  I guess even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while!
- By Irv Ayers (*) Date 02-06-2011 03:03 Edited 02-06-2011 19:49
If you are running stringger beads then the bead width can be 2-3 time the size of the electrode. If you are doing a weave then you can go 6 times the electrode width. Just becareful and not to burn rod after rod. Need to let either pipe or plate cool a little bit.
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 02-06-2011 17:56
I was taught to weld with stringers on plate   1"  verticle plate    tests after  the first two passes.
I was told that running wide weaves gets the steel to hot and changes the structure of the metal
our instructor welded several coupons using a weave technique and they broke like a piece of soapstone.
We were instructed to let the plate cool dolwn a bit in between passes and not burn rod after rod afer rod.
Most Welders i've met run 1/8 rod on verticle coupons, im sure their are those out there  that can weld
proficently with 5/32 and 3/16 verticle but the bigger the rod the more heat the bigger the weld puddle
to control. The City of Los Angeles weld code as limits on the width of weave beads   don't remember
what it is since i have'nt worked ther in a while but i believe it was 7/8 inch.
Parent - By Skaggydog (**) Date 02-06-2011 20:47
I am a City of Los Angeles Quality Control Welding Inspector and the City of Los Angles welding code for structural steel is AWS D1.1, AWS D1.3 and AWS D1.4. So, what 803056 answered above applies there as well.
- - By malCWI (*) Date 02-06-2011 23:11
When you do excessive weave be aware of a great deal of "heat input" is created and possibly weakening the weld and base metal. US Navy ships and boilers only permit 3X's the electrode (metal only not the flux) for a weave perfer only stringers.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-07-2011 04:01
I agree with the comments regarding excessive heat input. After all, we would not want the base metal to exceed the melting temperature. We might get a "weld" to actually happen.

Some of the comments I read are just plain ridiculous if you take a step back and think about what is being said.

There are legitimate reasons for setting certain ground rules if they are founded on real facts, scientific principles, and take into consideration how the welded structure will be used. Unfortunately, so many "rules" are simply BS with no basis in fact.

With regards to heat input; think about how steel is made. Notice I am limiting my comments to carbon and high strength low alloys. Most every structural shape, including hollow sections, is rolled hot. How hot? Well above 1600 degrees F. Water is flooded on the surface of the steel plate and shapes to produce a protective layer of steam that prevents the formation of heavy mill scale. Can you say the "excessive heat" produced by using weave beads or multiple pass welding techniques results in any temperatures hotter than the rolling practices used every day by the steel manufacturers?

From my vantage point I have to say "yes." The temperature of the weld pool has to exceed the melting point of the steel being welding or incomplete fusion will result. However the weld pool is relatively small and still cools comparatively quickly.

Table 3.2 only has upper interpass temperature restrictions for a few select base metals, not all carbon steel and high strength low alloy steel alloys have such limitations imposed unless notch toughness is an issue. Impact properties are typically a concern when the service environment involves temperatures well below 40 degrees F. That would not affect statically loaded structures where the structural framing is enclosed in the envelop of the heated building.

The argument whether stringer beads are better than weave beads is a sucker's bet. One demonstration I often use when teaching welding is to have each welder weld a fillet break test coupon by depositing a multipass fillet weld with a 3/8 inch leg and a single pass 3/8 leg. Each welder then has to break the samples welded with a sledge hammer. In every case, and I do mean every case, the conclusion is unanimous, the single pass weave deposited in the vertical position is much harder to break. While the stringers are "stronger" because of faster cooling rates, the weave beads are more ductile and can sustain many more repeated hammer blows before failing. Try it. It might surprise you. 

The goal of most welds should be to produce welded joints that are as strong as the base metals being joined. It rarely makes sense to deposit welds that are much stronger than the base metal if the resulting welds have inferior ductility. Stringer beads typically fail in the throat because they are strong, but lack ductility. The weave beads deposited with the same filler metal as the stringer beads are as strong as the base metal and typically exhibit superior ductility meaning they will undergo much more deformation before failing. The weave beads usually fail by ripping out the base metal.

There is one element that is often overlooked in any conversation, and that is welder skill. I don't care whether you use stringers or weaves, if the welder doesn't have the skill to deposit a sound weld it is going to fail any test, be it radiography or guided bend tests or a fillet break test. Skill is a function of training.

Limits placed on the width of a weave when using low hydrogen covered electrodes is not a code restriction and it is rarely imposed by the welding standard. There are no such limits imposed by NAVSEA S9074-AR-GIB-278 or NAVSEA S9074-AQ-GIB-010/248.  You can go back to the NAVSEA standards and look until Hell freezes over, it isn't in there and it isn't in the D1.5 Bridge Code or D1.1 Structural Welding Code/Steel or ASME B&PV Codes (unless you are doing a repair on a PWHT'd vessel and do not plan on performing the PWHT after the repair). If you cannot cite chapter and verse and provide me with a reference clause, paragraph, or article, doesn’t waste my time with the old wives tails. Any such restrictions are imposed by the employer, not the applicable welding standard.

As mentioned, there are times when heat input is limited to control grain growth and to improve toughness when low temperature applications are involved, but that isn't the case with the majority of the structural steel that is welded. When toughness is required, the WPS has to be qualified with notch toughness testing. There are additional variables that are categorized as essential (or supplementary essential) variables imposed to account for the affects of heat input. Heat input is one control used to control the cooling rates and subsequent grain size that is important for low temperature application. The flip side of the argument is that if the application is for higher temperatures where creep is a concern, large grains "Rule," so heat input isn't limited. Heat input by itself does not destroy steel unless you are going to heat the entire structure up to the melting point, in  which case you will have a molten pool of steel alloy and then who give a rat's butt whether the grain is coarse, fine, or in between.
Best regards - Al
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