Reading a puddle

By texasrigwelder (**)

Date 03-09-2011 02:59

Depends on what and how im welding lots of variables long as it's smooth and not erratic

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-09-2011 04:08

That's an interesting question Kay.

As I don't know what thread you are referring to and there have not been any processes or electrodes specified it takes on even wider possibilities.

I know lots of people that just can't seem to 'see' the difference between the molten metal and the slag in a liquid weld puddle. That is something that I watch for, how the weld metal and the slag 'separate' as the bead progresses and cools. There is a 'smoothness' to the flow when everything is set right and the arc is being manipulated correctly that just says 'this weld is good'.

While there can still be discontinuities at times, the better a weld bead 'looks' the more likely it is sound and free of 'defects/discontinuities'. The ripple spacing on the surface. The tie in at the weld toe. The colour of the completed bead. These things can tell you things about the 'heat'/amps, the material prep for cleanness, rather the operator pulled too far out of the weld puddle as they progressed instead of keeping the arc in the puddle so the puddle doesn't cool down too far and thus trap slag or other impurities under the next batch of deposited metal.

The color of the slag and how easily it comes off can tell you a lot as well. About the machine, the settings, and the operator.

I like many of the older machines for arc characteristics. Some of the old Lincolns have such a sweet running arc you can't hardly put in a bad weld if you tried. So many of the new machines just don't weld the same.

Anyway, just a couple of my thoughts.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-09-2011 15:03

pushing the 'LIKE' button. :grin:

By RonG

Date 03-09-2011 17:09

Well K, It might be easer to say what I don’t like in my puddle, and that would be an eradicate or intermittent flow of filler material.

I just like to run as short an Arc as possible but still be able to see the trailing edge of the puddle to keep the fill right up to the undercut with a slight crown and I like to see a hint of slag running in front of the puddle to know I'm not out running the heat. At least that’s the way I explain it to my trainees. :confused:

If your machine can produce a steady smooth arc, it makes that all pretty easy (use to be anyway). I’ve never had the pleasure of using any of the newer style engine powered machines but I have used a SA200 a fair amount and it gets my vote out side of the new technology AC powered machines. :grin:

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-10-2011 00:20

A even flow of filler rod and equal burn of the rod little to no fingernailing least amount of buckshot possible is the key for fill and cap !! Now stringer bead u want a digging arc and hold rod 90 degrees from weld all times sure u can cheat a few up or down if welding downhand u start rod get a puddle going then out run the keyhole if it catches u u r trapping slag don't run too fast tho your stringer will be too thin go down 5 I like to kinda step the bottoms in usually turn down bout 10 and step . But this is for pipe!! Also remember the harder the pipe the less you push on bead like X70 or more you wand to float a bead more than like X52 u can take a tighter spacer and cram the rod in just don't let the keyhole catch u.

By texasrigwelder (**)

Date 03-10-2011 00:29

I never step as bead unless u got to and always trap slag with bead(wat u think wagon traks are) that's Wat a hot pass is for

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-10-2011 00:53

Txrighand just giving my 2cents I know what a hot pass is ran them for years !! I ment a little step not a reach out a inch step more like a wiggle front to back really it will cause bottom to build up a little more bead for a good hot pass so u don't get a burn threw ! Just a trick I've learned . It is what it is bro

By Pickupman (***)

Date 03-10-2011 01:07

Keep it comin guys, I'm eatin this up. Good thread Kaye, Thanks.

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-10-2011 01:23

Everyone talks about it and brags about it, but everyone looks for alittle something different.

By texasrigwelder (**)

Date 03-10-2011 03:51

I understand but u trap slag runin a bead with 5p
It all depends on wat size pipe and wall. I run a softer puddle than probaly but with lots of drive too to chop a rod fast with lots of travel I'm 3rd gen pipeliner was taught old ways turn it up to can't handle it and go 5 more. I'm one that jacks with a machine to much to try to tweak one to be perfect get it there jobs over and nother size pipe start all over again have never welded with a machine that every ones the same

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-10-2011 17:40

Been interesting to read how various ones among us describe the puddle and how to make it run that way.

Some very good suggestions and tips.

Thanks for starting it Kay,

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-10-2011 02:29

No heat no feet!!

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-10-2011 16:18

I listened to you about floating the bead on the bottom of x70 and it helped me alot today! I'm on 42" x70 .750 wall putting tees and reducers on that have bad highlow and transisions, I was undercutting on the fitting side and now not as bad, thanks for the tip! I kept turning it down and trying to let it fill up to the transision but that don't work!

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-10-2011 16:40

Angle rod toward fitting a little bit short step puddle a tiny bit like a wiggle more than a step

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-11-2011 02:22

I'll try it next fit, if I can get a decent gap anywhere! The pipe is more of an octagon than a circle! I'm fighting hi lo both ways about four diffrent times per side on factory ends and the band cut ends are waveing in and out plus the hi lo! good thing it's big cuz there's alot of back welding going on!

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-10-2011 20:58 Edited 03-18-2011 18:16

If you will check your OCV's before you weld and while your weld, you will see that your OCV's drop to almost zero...when the arc is established.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-11-2011 02:14

I did not know that, I guess it's just a good refrence for generator output?

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-11-2011 15:24

Get a vantage come out of the dark ages lol!!!!! Sorry K!!

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-11-2011 23:55

HEHE!!!! Yes coming out of the dark ages leads into the light when a chopper board catches fire or when the huge bundles of wire rub together and short out the system.

I can see how that would be better, not top mention cheaper.

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 03-12-2011 01:43

Let it burn lol

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 03-15-2011 08:11

Amen K... tried and true technolgy thats been around for almost one hundred years. Gadegets come and go if it aint broke then dont fix it. chopper this and whistle that sounds like and infomercial for half price that cost twice as much in the long run. Been there done that and gone back to what I know. As far as what I look for I think alot of people may not even recognize is what I smell. ( You can smell a gas pockett and you can smell the difference from a dirty pipe or bad electrodes ) Just a thought to add what I already know and many may have not thought about. When my helper is grinding my bead and I smell that gas pockett smell I stop my helper and have my helper mark on the pipe where it is and have had many of times where xray crew has come to me to ask me " I see that you had a gas pockett but you must have known it was there cause in the film it has been fixed." How did you know it was there???? because I smelled it. Alot of reading a puddle just dosent have to do with your feeling but with other senses as well. I dont doctrine normal techinques in all aspects it comes with like you said in another post about learning your machine like your wife.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-15-2011 15:16

I don't understand, if you went back and fixed it how does X-Ray see it, and can't you see the pocket while grinding it? What does a gas pocket smell like?

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 16:30

<snickering> :evil:

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 03-15-2011 16:07 Edited 03-15-2011 16:09

Hillbilly Delux
?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Are you just kidding???????????????????????????????!!!

By jrw159

Date 03-16-2011 02:21

Joe,
If anything screams "drug test" it is this. :eek:

jrw159

By jrw159

Date 03-15-2011 22:07 Edited 03-16-2011 00:39

Wow. I smell "something". :twisted:

jrw159

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 22:37

Interesting..?? "Smell"???

I have a 'FEEL' for a lot of things in my welding, and you get to where you can 'SEE' a lot watching that puddle... BUT SMELL???

I can smell the moisture from a rusty pipe, or structural steel, but if it has been properly cleaned and pre-heated it's not there. And different fluxes smell different, but I try to keep my head out of the plume. Not real good for you.

I think you better check your helpers diet, too many beans. Don't let him too close while welding... GAS POCKETS!!

You better patent that nose. I would think you would be rich from hiring it out.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By strother (***)

Date 03-16-2011 00:07

Sorry Hillbilly, sounds like B.S. to me . But then again I'm not a pipeliner .

By alan domagala (**)

Date 03-16-2011 00:53

I can smell undercut. :lol:

By jrw159

Date 03-16-2011 02:20

I know a guy that could use help finding argon leaks so he does not fail x-ray.

Yep,......two birds with one stone.

jrw159

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 03-20-2011 06:52

Two birds with one stone. Yep smell is a factor of welding. Dont care if you believe in it or not. Been out of internet service for five days in a condo playing in Jackson hole chucking my snow sled off the side of the mountain for fun as to the result of my welding.I get back on here and have something like ten post to me about drug test and bullsh... Not throwing out the card of Im the best welder. But theres a reason I shoot 100 percent almost 100 percent of the time. 31 welders came and gone last job in Salt Lake. When I showed up they got rid of the rest and I closed the show. Dosent matter wether its 31.1 or 1104. You weld they way you want I will weld with what works to me. It pays my bills just trying to give insight as to what I use as tools to help me. I got more work than I can handle and theres a reason for that. Quality, skill, technique and a devine understanting of what it is that I am working with. If you want I will teach you of what it is to not guess welding. I mean thats what you guys write a wps for. Gives a dumb welder a set of guidelines. Not looking to open up a can of worms but you just stick to inpecting and I will just keep giving you good weld results.

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 03-20-2011 07:21

And please dont reply to this post I dont have time replying to welders and wanna be welders turned inspectors about the smell thing or as I posted about the wps thing and welders. thanks. Former post is to jwr 159 and him as a whole.

By jrw159

Date 03-20-2011 19:31

YES!! There are smells involved with welding. Pretty much all of them should be avoided :eek:

. Smelling a gas pocket in a weld as your helper (reach around guy) is grinding it out is ********.

Someone needs to drug test you because you are fricken HIGH. :evil:

Now if I, and many others, are wrong then you need to market this undiscovered and unbeleivable talent. You could be a milliionaire in a matter of hours.

jrw159

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 03-20-2011 21:37

How do you know Im not. Seem to rember a time when you basicly got run off a job for not knowing shet. Maybe you should learn to know what it smells like so you dont step in it. Dont go puling your liberal loving hippie bullsh.. on me. It just makes you look as stupid as awspart bs. Now knock it off with the smear campaign or youll end up once bitten twice shy.

By jrw159

Date 03-22-2011 01:35

Let me make it really simple for you Hand. If you have a big enough "gas pocket" that you can smell it when your helper grinds it out then you damn sure should have already known it was there since you laid the huge sonuvabich in there. Plus if while in La-La Land you can smell it, you would most likely be able to hear it pop as well. Now do you understand??

Hear it pop..... Thats funny. :wink:

jrw159

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-22-2011 03:25

I think he may be on to something, I was watching my helper grind out a failed x-ray once, when all a sudden he ripped a big one and the gas was so bad I had to vacate the area. When I returned I had forgot that he wasn't done grinding, and I filled the cavity with weld, and I'll be damn, my weld passed.
From now on, when I smell the gas, I'll know its time to fill-er-up :twisted:

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-18-2011 19:09 Edited 03-18-2011 22:00

I look at the color of the flux while running

By RonG

Date 03-20-2011 23:34

I'm with you on that Kay, you need to see the difference between the puddle and the slag.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-16-2011 17:18 Edited 03-16-2011 17:21

Ok, this is what I gather from asking welders, is the reason the ocv drops to zero because it is what is powering the generator? Also when you set up a machine, let's say a redface after a rebuild, do you set it back to factory specs as far as high idle, rack placement, oem brushes, ect. Or do you play with it to get a happy medium that you think customers prefer for there application? Also I'm not sure whether you agree or disagree with me whether or not ocv's affect the puddle. I guess I should add this question is for K.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 03-17-2011 01:39

OCV is not powering the generator, it is the output FROM the generator. On these machines, the field generator is also used for Aux. power.

OCV is open circuit voltage. When You have a puddle, You are measuring arc voltage. You don't have both at the same time, so the wise ass answer is no, the OCV doesn't affect the puddle, because what You are measuribng isn't OCV. The answer You are looking for is YES You will get different arc characteristics if You change the OCV, because it will have some effect on the arc voltage. Changing the RPM changes the OCV and influences the arc voltage.

The reason the voltage drops when You strike an arc is that You have applied electrical load to the welder, and it has a drooping volt amper curve which limits the available amperage, and allows the voltage to drop as the electrical load increases. This allows You to control voltage by changing arc kength.

Kay advises not to roll the rack, and set the output to factory specs. This is good advice, particularly if You don't have a lot of experience messing with these machines.

You do get to choose the volt amper curve to a degree with a SA type machine by using different combination of range and fine control settings.

On a SAE machine You get stepless control with the continuous tapped reactor and field rheostat.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-17-2011 12:33

Thanks for the reply Dave, I guess I sounded like a dumbs$$ with that question, I should have been more descriptive , what I was getting at was was the ocv a measure of voltage supplied to the main generator from the exciter, I think the answer is still no. I'm trying to figure out the relationship between the exciter and main generator, that might not be what it's called but I'm hoping y'all will understand what I'm getting at. I use the ocv to adjust my puddle depending of what I'm welding, I guess I should say I use my high idle screw to adjust the ocv and use it as a gauge to "see where I'm at"

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 03-18-2011 01:06

The field windings need electricity to become magnets so that power can be generated by the main armature turning in the magnetic field. The exciter generates this electricity for the field windings, but it goes through the fine control rheostat to vary it's strength which allows You to control the main generator output. The exciter makesabout 110-120 volts, and this is used for Aux. power as well. They COULD have designed the system to operate with any field voltage, but 115 [about] is what You need to power tools, so that is what they used.

When You turn down the fine control, You lower the voltage sent to the main generator field, which decreases it's output.

On the 250 & 300 the exciter is AC output for the benifit of having AC Aux. power [and simpler & less costly manufacturing]. This goes through a rectifier to make DC out of it before going to the field.

Hope this helps.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-18-2011 01:19

Dave, you are the man! That is what I've been trying to figure out. But ocv isn't related to exciter output, only in the sense that the exciter output determines what ocv you will have? On second thought disregard that last statement, let me soak in today's lesson before trying to learn anything else. Thanks for the knowlege!

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-18-2011 18:23

The reason it is a BAD idea to continually change the OCV's is:

By adjusting the high idle to increase heat (increasing puddle) is because you are also increasing the voltage from the exciter into the generator field coils. A machine should be set at 120vdc at high idle--WITH THE MACHINE AT FACTORY SPEC (rack and such) you will have approx 92 ocv's at the output studs. ----Increasing your OCV's to say 100 for more puddle you are then putting 135-140vdc into the shunt field coils. This is bad because the overvoltage will burn out the coils.

I set machines to factory specs. I then weld with it to see the weld. If it is not to my opinion of what the customer will like I tweek components PROPERLY to create the weld I want.

By Nitrowelding (**)

Date 03-19-2011 01:01 Edited 03-19-2011 01:53

Ok, I'm running a Perkins 300d right now, mine runs 99ocv at 1800rpm I don't go up because it's already pretty watery at 99, I roll the rpm's back to 1700 at the least, that gives me around 92ocv and that's where I like it for 70plus rods down hill pipe. Am I hurting my machine? I don't think so because if I had the sense to get one with a kubota I would have custom arc and wouldn't have to break out the wrenches to roll the rpm's up or down. I feel like everybody jumps on the guys who tweek there own machines, while I know there are people reading these forums and then heading out to the truck tools in hand that don't have the mechanical sense god gave a cricket! There are some of us who take the time to learn, ask questions and figure the what Ifs and why's of what we are doing. The common answer being " if Lincoln had wanted it that way it would be that way" but I say horse pucky to that! Lincoln made it for ironworkers, pipeliners, mobile welding services, rental units, and about a million other reasons. If I can adjust my machine to better suit my techniques and processes then who can fault me? I don't advocate rolling the rack because I tried it and didn't like the outcome, I work with guys who bump theirs on a daily basis, I realize some things can be detremental to the life of the welder but don't jump on everyone who turns a wrench on their own machine! That said every reputable shop I have ever been into and asked the question said DO NOT BUMP THE RACK. For what it's worth I don't do that "anymore"

By KSellon (****)

Date 03-18-2011 18:15

You are amazing.. This should be a sticky..

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 03-19-2011 02:06 Edited 03-19-2011 02:10

Thanks. I can explain the operating principles, but I will leave the details to You.