Bottle Racks

Date 03-14-2011 00:40

I'm Sure. I realize that you see it all the time, but it is illegal. If you get caught the fines are confiscatory! If you get involved in a little fender bender which requires vehicle safety inspection, you will be nailed.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 00:44 Edited 03-14-2011 00:53

I think there was another link where there was a big debate on whether o2 could be transported on its side, on jobsites and so on. I believe somebody posted info for Osha or DOT stating that they can only be transported in the upright position. Not sure on where this conversation took place on here exactly though. I guess that's why I like my bottle cabinet, close the door and they're none the wiser. Besides, around here they(other welding outfits) are firm believers in the gauges on the bottles without protection while driving.

As far as ideas on bottle racks I planned on making my new ones out of aluminum in a tombstone shape. Bottle on the bottom and hole above for my 6" pvc umbrella tube. Here's a drawing of what I had planned. Sorry the image is so huge, trying to get off here and go work out......on the couch with the remote, been at it all weekend. For a double bottle rack you could just change the top to the same diameter as the bottom. I planned on using aluminum angle for the frame, another tombstone piece for the back end. I've been working on a way to attach the rack securely but easily removed for those times when I may need to work on the Sa. I have since ditched this idea and am working on something else, still want to be able to remove it though.

By Dark_Angel (*)

Date 03-14-2011 01:09

Thats great! What is the length of the bottle rack? and how is it set up on the inside with the frame, you just using some square tubing or angle iron?

By jrw159

Date 03-14-2011 01:32 Edited 03-14-2011 05:19

Dark_Angel,

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=173512;hl=OSHA

The kicker is OSHA and regardless of how you classify yourself or what you call yourself, when you pull on to a job site with other workers around you, whether they work for you, themselves, someone else or Santa Claus, if you expose them to the possibility of injury or death, you can be held responsible by OSHA.

Now having said that, I have seem MANY rigs with bottles stored and transported on their sides and get away with it, but that does not mean it is right.

At least you have the correct information.

Good luck with your build.

jrw159 :cool:

EDIT: Removed analogy. Not correctly proportionate.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 01:56

Just figured angle on the lower corners, something inside to slide the bottle on the hole length. Was not to sure about the angle on the top since it was has a radius but did not get that far before I ditched the plan. The length, well, figured up to the part of the bottle where it starts to reduce towards the valve then secure in the rack....somehow. Not a complete layout or plan but seems most stuff I get a real good idea in my head and start building then issue myself some change orders along the way! :lol:

By jrw159

Date 03-14-2011 01:30

Shawn,
Are you refering to this thread?

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=173512;hl=OSHA

jrw159

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 01:51

That's the one Jr, thanks for the link.

By thermopsummit (*)

Date 03-14-2011 12:57 Edited 03-14-2011 14:40

I asked my bottle supplier in Riverton about this, he went to corporate and called wydot as well, as far as dot was concerned there is no regulations against carrying your bottles on their side with the caps on in a secure manner is what he told me, osha he said was another matter but as a independent contractor i should not be subject to their rules, and he said while their rules are quite clear on bottles inside buildings they really are not clear at all or dont define a mobile platform, Ive dealt with store manager at Airgas a long time, hes never done me wrong beats internet prices on any piece of equipment ect researches everything he can when i have a question, my bottles are on their side in my truck oxy and argon. my 2 cents
Richard

By jrw159

Date 03-14-2011 13:39

Richard,
Just a little bit of information for you to consider.

"OSHA uses a set of criteria/questions to determine if workers are contract workers or employees. An employer simply stating that an employee is a contract worker or having an employee sign a statement that they are a contract worker may not necessarily be sufficient. Contract workers should be aware that they are responsible for all taxes (i.e., payroll, social security, etc.) which stems from their employment. Realize also as a contractor or sub-contractor you are the employer and employee for that company.

Also, OSHA has a multi-employer worksite policy (1999 - 12/10/1999 - CPL 02-00-124 [CPL 2-0.124] - Multi-Employer Citation Policy; which holds every contractor accountable for safety at a worksite. Responsibilities exist for:

The Creating Employer: The employer that caused a hazardous condition that violates an OSHA standard.

The Exposing Employer: An employer whose own employees are exposed to the hazard.

The Correcting Employer: An employer who is engaged in a common undertaking, on the same worksite, as the exposing employer and is responsible for correcting a hazard. This usually occurs where an employer is given the responsibility of installing and/or maintaining particular safety/health equipment or devices.

The Controlling Employer: An employer who has general supervisory authority over the worksite, including the power to correct safety and health violations itself or require others to correct them. Control can be established by the exercise of control in practice.

There are numerous criteria used by compliance officers to establish the employer and employee relationship. Every employee being considered a sub-contractor would undergo intense scrutiny as this would be a highly unusual situation. Various factors require that this evaluation be done on a case-by-case basis."

As for the "mobile platform", I will have to look for this as I do not remember exactly where this is covered. I may have provided a link in the other thread mentioned. I will look for it.

Again, I have seen MANY bottles transported horizontaly and it has been my experiance that in general, they will not bust your nuts as long as, as you mention, caps on and secured properly. However, if and when there is an accident things change quickly and heads start to roll. :eek:

BTW, it sounds like Tracy is a pretty good guy to deal with, you should feel blessed to have that. :grin:

jrw159

By thermopsummit (*)

Date 03-14-2011 14:50

Thanks JRW
Would appreciate any info on osha you can come up with, one of the things i believe they check is for insurance which i carry 2 mil, which dont get me into the majors anymore merit or marathon and some of the others, I also know some state dots enforce things or define differently, i pretty much stay close to home within 150 miles.
All that being said, i use rings with stops so my bottles are visible, lets me access my door by removing top bottle, I have a miller pro 300, using a enclosed rack like cummins has looks far more subtle and i think thats a good idea.
Richard

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 18:31

Ok, I just got off the phone with D.O.T, figured I'd go straight to the horse. He said that the cylinders can be transported in either the vertical or horizontal position as long as they are secure. He said they could not be transported laying on a platform/floor of the motor vehicle. He said they must be in racks with means to secure them and hold them in position under all NORMAL driving conditions. I explained our basic o2 bottle racks and told him the only way mine was coming out was if I rolled the truck over and then it might not come out. He said that would not be considered a normal driving condition. He said if they are on the side and are secured in racks then we are completely legal. He also said that nowhere does it state that the cylinders must be transported vertically, just went back to the(reading) "upright or horizontal and secured in racks".

Now as far as Osha goes, cannot say but if D.O.T says it is completely legal to carry our o2 tanks on the side, secured then I don't see where Osha could change the rules.....not like that would happen though! :grin:

Straight from the horses mouth, 202-366-4000, request the Hazardous Materials Transport Division.

By Caleb C. (**)

Date 03-14-2011 19:18

Great info Shawn. It doesn't get much clearer than that. Although I'm sure it will still get debated around here by someone lol :cry:

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 19:24

Yeah, that's why I put that part in there about Osha, don't know what the heck they want and one phone call to the gub'ment in a day is all I could handle!!

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 03-14-2011 20:02

Same way here in Texas.

By JTMcC

Date 03-14-2011 23:00

Last fall I saw osha smack a contractor with multiple fines because several welders had horizontal oxy.
Lot's of guys whacking up nice beds to get the bottles reoriented.

JTMcC.

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 00:21

When OSHA came onto our Jobsite, (November 2010) They looked at every one of our Trucks. (Hard) Every Truck had their Bottles laid down. Not one Inspector (Out of the 4 that were there) even mentioned it. They did SUGGEST thet we had a Better method of Eye Wash (Of all things). Three weeks later, when the Investigation was over, They determined that they had no jurisdiction over us anyway, as we are all Independent Contractors with no employees. We DID have all of our paperwork and contracts as well as insurance in order. Had we have not had all those things, The outcome could have been different.

By raftergwelding (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 05:20

Ihave been stopped by city cops,state troopers and border patrol agents with my oxy bottles laying flat and in a rack all they were concerned about was what was in the bottles they never said anything to me about them laying down with the gauges on and no i didnt have gaurds on the valves illeagal it may be but i have never beedn told anything by a law officer about them laying down Ilive in south texas for those of you that dont know me

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 07:58

Guess I'll just rattle Osha's phone this morning and find out for sure.

By JTMcC

Date 03-15-2011 14:24

If you really believe that by making one phone call to one osha office and talking to one person, you're going to "find out for sure", well........
Their stack of rules regulations and superstitions is so large that no one osha stooge has a grasp of it all and you can deal with three osha inspectors and get five different "versions" of their rules.
The only osha (or dot cop) opinion that matters is the one that's standing in front of you today.

JTMcC

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 14:38

Well if I find out from one in a phone call and get reference numbers to where they are getting it from and carry this with me to fight a fine and explain that since the "law" allows for 5 different people to interpret it 5 different ways then maybe they should address the way it is written so it can only be interpreted one way.

I did find this however,

1910.253(b)(5)(iii)(A)
Fuel-gas cylinders shall be placed with valve end up whenever they are in use. Liquefied gases shall be stored and shipped with the valve end up.

So, that may be the difference it DOT and Osha. DOT just considers that you are transporting said cylinder and don't give a hoot as long as it is secure. Osha is concerned with how it sits while in use. If you transport it laying on its side and you are not using it when Osha arrives then you might get away with it. If you had one standing up and one on its side for storage and gauges were hooked to the vertical cylinder they would not cite you I suppose.

By JTMcC

Date 03-15-2011 16:35

I understand what you're trying to do but experience lernt me that when you're dealing with bureaucrats from large govt. agencies (osha, dot, irs, tsa), if you expect logical and sensible results you will often be dissapointed.
Those agencies live to waste your time and $$$.
When I had horizontal oxy on my truck I carried copies of the applicable statutes in my glove box, sometimes it worked as planned but many times it didn't (usually on the side of the road at night, in the rain).
For what it's worth, my understanding is that the dot rules for carrying compressed gas cylinders on a welding rig in small quantities and the rules for bulk transport carriers differ (or at least they did a few years ago), over 600 lb of product (not counting cylinder weight) used to be the point where all cylinders had to be vertical. May well be different now.
That's my take.

JTMcC

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-15-2011 20:02

I understand what your saying, just depends on the guy pulling you over, whether he got a poke that morning or not!! :lol:

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 03-15-2011 19:19

Man you have hit that nail on the head !!!!!!! The dot officer that stopped me for an inspection crawled under the trailer frame to look for the manufactures tag, when it didn't match the registration weight he said he's going by the manufactures' tag. The outcome so far, manufacturer says they should be going by registry weight, lawyer I had to hire says registration card weight, next one's opinion that will matter is the states attorney/judge. I could lose my license, be jailed, get probation. Fines so far total $3000.00, lawyers fee to represent $500.00. All over a weight sticker from the manufacturer that had 18,000# on it instead of 12,000#. Also manufacturer 2 dayed a new sticker to me so I could get the trailer out of impound!!!!! "So Remember Its' Not What The Law Is , Its' How A Certain Officer (stooge) Interprets It" !!!!!: :mad:

By JTMcC

Date 03-15-2011 20:42

Like I mentioned before, I saw a large contractor get hit with major fines for rigs with oxy laid down in late 2010.
I won't name them because a lot of people know who they are and I try not to broadcast other peoples biness, but they had over a thousand people on the payroll (at that location) and a good 30% of the welding rigs had horizontal oxy and the fines were full of pain even for a world wide contractor.
Pay your money and take your chances as the saying goes. The bottom line belongs to you only.
You'll never defeat the "human element" when dealing with regulatory agency employees.
An irritated state trooper from a state far, far away can be your not best friend. And taking time (read $$$$$) off the job to fight a stupid court case (that you'll probably win) a thousand miles from where your money lives is not on MY agenda.
Your world may differ.

JTMcC

By cdd

Date 03-15-2011 01:28

caleb whats the dimensions on yours ? i like how you did that

By Caleb C. (**)

Date 03-15-2011 03:37

cdd, I don't have the dimensions on the top of my head but I'll try and get it measured tomorrow if I can. I didn't really plan it out, I just kind of put it together and measured as I went. LOL Thats generally how I do stuff and believe it or not it works for me. Well...90% of the time it does anyway!

The door fits tight around the tapered part of the bottle to keep them from "jumping", but they do spin inside the cabinet a little after driving on some rough roads for a good ways, so I'm going to have to weld a couple of bolts to tighten down on the cylinders to keep them from slowly spinning around. (which I knew I should have done in the first place).

Caleb