Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / CTOD in lieu of PWHT
- - By toddler (**) Date 04-01-2011 02:14
Hi!

Can anybody please enlighten me how using a WPS with CTOD can replace PWHT requirement?

Thanks!
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-01-2011 12:04
It can't.
First of all if you are talking about Crack Tip Opening Displacment CTOD it is simply a destructive mechanical test demonstrating specific material properties. It has nothing to do with a WPS other than sometimes CTOD's will be specified instead of Charpies because CTOD's have a mathematical relationship to what is considered real material properties, whereas Charpies don't. It is not often utilized in relation to WPS's because it is slow and expensive and is considered more a research tool.
PWHT on the other hand is a Code requirement and I know of no exemption wherein CTOD can replace stress relief.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-01-2011 18:38
js is right. PWHT is a Code requirement and can not be replaced by other methods.
Vibratory Stress Relief (VSR) is widely used in Europe and to some extension also here in Brazil, but it isn't accepted by American Codes (ASME I and VIII, ASME B31 and AWS D1.1).
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 04-02-2011 08:48
G.S.Crisi
Shouldn't that be PWHT is a Code requirement for certain welds that are a prequalified WPS according to AWS D1.1?
Does AWS D1.1 place such a requirement on a procedure when qualified through testing and passes even tho there was no PWHT used?
Just my ¢¢’s
Marshall
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-04-2011 19:05
wacco,
sorry, I can't answer your questions. May be someone else in this Forum could.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 04-01-2011 19:56
toddler
Let me see if I understand.
You have a wps created from a pqr.
PQR was done without PWHT requirement.
Was PQR tested for toughness with CTOD and found satisfactory taking away the need for  PWHT.
Just some rambling trying to understand how I might compare apples to oranges
Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - By toddler (**) Date 04-02-2011 11:18 Edited 04-02-2011 11:29
Marshall,

That's right. A PQR with CVN test qualified to conform to AWS D1.1 requirements but with CTOD as well. I don't remember CTOD a requirement by AWS D1.1, neither PWHT. The requirement for PWHT I guess (for offshore structures) comes from Norsok DNV-OS-F101 where PWHT is required for C-Mn and low alloy steels over 50mm thick (in lieu of fracture test). It's a reversed strategy actually, doing the fracture test (CTOD) instead of PWHT.
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 04-02-2011 00:42
Well, I’m surprised we all have the same opinion. Is anybody here familiar with onshore fabrication of offshore structures like topsides and jackets for example? Confine ourselves to structural materials with thicknesses over 40mm (or 50 or 60) where the requirement for PWHT starts (I am with you, we’re used to 19 or 20mm). In offshore fabrication and even offshore installation, the requirement for PWHT above these limits is waived (with client/owner approval) by using a WPS supported with PQR with CTOD test. And this kind of setup is actually happening or had been happening in the offshore world. I hope somebody here from TWI can shed light as they are regarded as an “authority” with regards to the application of CTOD and ECA particularly on pipeline installation. I’ve been searching the net for theoretical explanation on how a PQR with CTOD can waive PWHT requirement but to no avail. The WPS in all these cases are qualified to AWS D1.1 up to 2010 edition.
Parent - - By weldeng13 (*) Date 05-06-2011 19:33
DNVOS-F101 is for submarine pipeline systems, we weld to it all the time for reeled pipelines and subsea structures.  The materials we are welding are commonly API X65 and X70 and different types of forgings.  We don't PWHT pipe welds and pipe to forging welds are more commonly also not PWHT.  Almost all of our procedures are qualified using CTOD testing (both SENT and SENB).  I believe the thought is for thicker steels you have a greater chance of unfavorable microstructure with little fracture resistance so either heat treat it per Appendix C Section G 400 or perform weld and HAZ CTOD testing to prove a fracture resistant microstructure.

In the pipeline world CTOD testing is common.
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 05-11-2011 08:18
You are correct. PWHT is of course impractical in pipelaying jobs that's why CTOD is performed to waive the PWHT requirement. Going back to my question, what is the rationale behind the acceptability of CTOD test to replace PWHT? If in simple terms we do PWHT to relieve induced stress during welding or restore ductility of material ("hardened" as a result of rapid cooling due to thick welds), will CTOD test achieve this? I guess not.
My guess would be that CTOD simply provides some kind of assurance that the weld joint will not fail even without post weld heat treatment (at a given material thickness). There is no metallurgical explanation or correlation between CTOD and PWHT with regards to changes in material properties. I am getting a better understanding now than before when I post this question and I just hope this understanding is correct.

CTOD in pipeline is common but it is now becoming acceptable practice in heavy structural works as well (as an option to waive PWHT requirement).
Parent - By weldeng13 (*) Date 05-16-2011 02:45
I am not sure about it becoming common in the structural world, what I believe is that someone is making you weld structural to a subsea pipeline spec. Unless an ECA is being developed for your welds and you will have a different acceptance criteria.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-16-2011 21:33
Actually, though no code that I know allows it as a replacement for PWHT, except, as I discovered, the standard stated above, there is a metallurgical justification. PWHT not only reduces stress and increases ductility, it does other things. It precipitates carbides, segregates elements, creates carbon denuded zones, varies creep rupture properties, to list but a few, and also increases, with most ferritic alloys, impact toughness. The very property CTOD's are designed to measure.
And toughness would be, in cold subsea environments, a major issue. And since CTOD's are considered a real material property with a mathematical relationship I can see where it could be used to index the acceptability of other porperties.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 11-02-2011 13:00
Hi Toddler

Post is a little late, but only just returned to AWS forum after an absence of a couple of years! Hope you are still interested in an answer:

CTOD testing does not replace PWHT, the intention is to perform a test to show that the weld will be able to perfom its intended function without requiring PWHT. While thicker materials can obviously have a greater "quenching" effect, resulting in hardened microstructures, this can be dealt with in a number of ways, such as high pre-heats and welding with high heat inputs. Also, multi pass welds (and here I am looking at normal C/Mn steel) tend to have the passes deposited first, "tempered" by the subsequent passes, so can actually have quite a ductile and impact resistant structure. The main reason that thick materials (especially structural steel) require PWHT is that the thicker the material, the more restraint there is to the joint experiencing plastic deformation, which can result in even a ductile material acting in a brittle manner. (Often called the triaxiality effect.) This means that the high residual stresses built up in these welds (due to the welding) could potentially not "relax" due to plastic flow when placed under high loads, but will just fracture in a brittle manner, as the local stresses exceed the UTS. By reducing the residual welding stresses (through PWHT) the welded structure is then able to carry its intended design load without fracturing, as the local stresses will only be due to the design loads (well almost) and not due to a combination of design loads and residual stresses.

If it is possible to prove that the weld will not act in a brittle fashion, without the PWHT, then in effect you have proven that the PWHT is not necessary. This is where the CTOD test comes in. While CTOD and CVN both measure the material's "fracture resistance", the CVN impact test is performed on standardised test specimens, (typically 10mm x 10mm cross section) so they will give the same answer whether the material welded is 12mm thick or 120mm thick. (Assuming that the material microstructure is the same, that is.) They can not take any joint geometry issues into account. The CTOD test on the other hand is performed on specimens that are essentially as thick as the weld, and have a reasonable correlation to the residual stress state of the weld. If the CTOD test shows that the weld does not fracture in a brittle manner, then we can have a high certainty that the weld will perform well in service without the PWHT.

Hope this answers the question.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 11-06-2011 13:10
Hi Ozniek!

Many thanks! Very well explained and more than what I asked for :smile:
I've been seeing this option in many of our client structural fabrication specifications especially for 50mm or 60mm and above CS materials.
I was still confused when I post this but after searching the web and reading replies in this post (esp. yours) the principle is now clear to me.
I'm really impressed on the clarity, simplicity and completeness of your response.

Thanks!
Parent - By ozniek (***) Date 11-06-2011 14:52
Hi

No worries, as they say here in OZ.

Regards
Niekie
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / CTOD in lieu of PWHT

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill