Im no inspector but

Date 06-05-2011 05:08

It's not that unusual to get looked out on a root pass. Just because other people are busting out doesn't mean you will. If those Inspectors are booting people it's more than likely those being booted are not performing up to code. I have to say though I have seen a Inspector or two throw a little favoritism in their inspections. More than likely those inspectors following the code to the letter and no slack is being given. Good luck.

By junkiron (**)

Date 06-06-2011 15:25

inspectors usually don't grade a test to a code, they just go by what they think is good or not even though it would be acceptable to the code

By 99205

Date 06-06-2011 16:11

you've got to be kidding me.

By Superflux (****)

Date 06-06-2011 17:43

"inspectors usually don't grade a test to a code, they just go by what they think is good or not"

I hear this and similar comments all the time from Welders that BUSTED OUT on the test.
I've passed and failed a lot of tests over the years (I'm refering to myself as a welder). Most busts were my fault and a couple of passes were judgement calls. I guess it all evens out.
There were 2 instances where it was the @#@#$#% inspector playing a game. Neither incident was the QC a CWI. One I was looked out on the root because the backer bar did not have enough scale on it.
The other, was out and out fishing for a pay-off. After putting in a root that was over flush to 1/16" (no hot pass yet), the inspector told me it had to have more penetration. He then proceded to unroll a set of (his) handmade knives and asked me if I wanted to buy one....I declined to purchase one and was busted out. His non code judgement calls and lack of ethics caught up to him. Ten years later, a contractor facing astronomical rework back charges, hired an independent auditing firm. He ate a .44 magnum for a midnight snack rather than face the legal charges that were being brought up against him.
The moral to the story I suppose is that sooner or later, a shady inspector is gonna GET WHAT HE DESERVES IN THE END.... In the mean time, they make it tough on those who do their job by the book.

On the other hand, I'm not going to waste the company's money when some one comes into the test booth with a hood that still had "1st Street Crackhead Pawn and Payday Loans" sticker on it, a claw hammer and nylon scrub brush. Yes, that really happened last year! I gave him a scrapped set of coupons to practice on and then "made a judgement call". Danged HR can't tell a faked application from didley squat.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-06-2011 18:07

That's a bunch of nonsense.

Every test must be to a code. The testing procedures are different for different codes, mandrel sizes on coupon benders, number of samples, nick-break or not needed, acid etch or not needed, can it be RT'd instead of bent, etc. Each code is different. Pipe is not the same in D1.1 as it is in API 1104. The electrodes and/or processes used are not the same. There are many variables.

If an ispector is testing a welder for qualification/certification then it IS to a code. And that will determine how the test is run from beginning to end. There may be some items that bring personal opinion into play, but not many. But the biggest factor beyond the code being tested to is the WPS and how the Customer/Contractor wants the job done. There are many things that the customer can require that are not Code requirements. But it is their job and WPS so you must weld it that way and the inspector must inspect it that way. End of story.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By junkiron (**)

Date 06-07-2011 02:55

if thats true why does anybody fail a pipeline test, 1104 code

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-05-2011 17:08

It is not if it makes one feel good to look a welder out on the bead. But why continue the test when the end result is the welder will not pass.
I have tapped many a welder over the years when it is obvious the bead will fail.
I have even tapped a welder on the tack up. When it is obvious the welder does not know what they are doing, why continue?
And on the test line, I could care less how long it has been since you made a weld, if your puppy died or your mother is sick!
In over 20 years of welding inspection, EVERY TIME I gave a welder a break on the test, I got screwed. So when I bust a welder on the bead before the little darling gets the chance to run a hot pass, at one time the last drop of the milk of human kindness was squeezed out of my heart by a welder I gave a break on a test.
I explain clearly what will cause a bust on the test. I explain exactly what I will look at on the tack up, bead and hot pass.
If the welder does not provide a suitable weld, it just is not his day.
And one of the best welding inspectors I ever had the privilege to work with was NOT a welder.

By JTMcC

Date 06-05-2011 22:02

Welders don't deserve a "break" on a test they only deserve a fair shot.
But it helps to keep in mind that the human element is in play always.
With contractors billing the owner around $1500 per welder tested in some circumstances, there WILL be games played. It's free money after all. Large amounts are made on those jobs that have a 80% bust rate, but strangely enought they invite 80% of those looked out, back to retest the next day. My 9 year old can figure that one out.
It's a whole nuther world when the inspector looks a kid out because he doesn't like the tattoo on his neck, or the license plate on his rig, or the bumper sticker, etc.
But in the end all of it's just life. You'll never eliminate the human element. Some is good, some not. Both have to be dealt with.

JTMcC

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-08-2011 23:12

This I have learned.
I do things today much different than when I started out.
But you always treat the welder with respect when it is not their day.
I can remember when I busted test's.
Even if one of the little darlins wants to bow up to you, you just walk away.

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-06-2011 05:38

Whatever dude long live your powertrip!!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-06-2011 03:38

Would it be ok if the guy who looks you out is also a welder?

Sheesh

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-06-2011 04:25

So, Johnny,

Maybe I should go back and re-read some of your earlier posts but you never struck me as the kind of guy who gets so worked up over some third party gossip nonsense from some wash out with a grudge.

But, before you get so worked up and start making yourself look like the same kind of fool as the gossip you listened to, maybe you should find out more about the codes you supposedly work to. Then find out more about the responsibilities of the inspectors and how it relates to the job and code requirements.

In most codes, there are definitely conditions which would make a weld unacceptable and/or rejectable in the fitup or root pass stage with no further welding necessary to stop production or testing. That is one of the main purposes for visual inspections during ALL stages of the work. Visual inspection save contractors and owners lots of dollars by correcting work before it gets too far and wastes time and materials or even requires UT, RT, etc.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 06-06-2011 04:49

Johnny,
I think Brent and DBK explained the situation pretty well.
Some of your comments were bordering on ridiculous but rather than get in a slanging match I will try and explain what you don't seem to understand.
In my game my reputation is everything and in construction it is a very small world.
If I work for a company and it is my responsibility to qualify the welders I want to make sure they are competent welders - I don't want the project manager ringing me up and giving me an earful because I have sent him incompetent welders.
Same as if I am qualifying welders as a TPI - my company or the company I am working for has a reputation to uphold as a professional testing company. I sign off on a load of qualified welders and they all start getting repairs because site is a lot harder than in the test-booth - do you really think that company is going to hire me again ?
Read the statement you have posted below and have a real good think about what you have written.

"We all get a little rusty after 3 or 4 months !! But after a couple welds we usually get our hand back"

1 You "usually" get your hand back - and what happens if you don't ?
2 A couple of welds and you are OK - what if that is 6 or 7 ?
3 A welder qualification test is not a training school - you get one chance to show you are competent (sometimes two - dependant on code) - if you are rusty you should have done some practice in your own time.

Do you honestly think an employer is going to want to pay for you to get your hand back in ?
Regards,
Shane

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-06-2011 05:35

I'm not talking bout a obvious non welding idiot I'm talking bout a hand who knows what they are doing and gets looked out by someone who ain't never seen a weld other than a picture!! We are talking bout 100 welders that have tested and 96 bust out that is bs in my book sure maybe 50 but dang ! I knew surfer boy would get smart so have fun in your world

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-06-2011 20:19

Sounds like a bad procedure to me.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-07-2011 23:22

Come on Johnny,

Which is it, 96 out of 100 or 50 out of 100?? If you are that unsure of the correct numbers might it only be 20 out of 100?? I still think you are getting involved and creating an issue where there probably isn't one. Stay away from gossip. Take your own test and form your own opinion. Ask to see the WPS for the test, especially if they don't hand a copy to you before you start. Follow the WPS. If you are any good you won't have a problem. If they do "look" you out, probably not a company you would want to work for anyway.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-06-2011 20:18

When overseeing a welder Qual he must follow the WPS if he walks up and starts welding cold and the WPS specs out pre heat........Fail.......wrong wire...fail.....blow by interpass temps ..fail...too fast travel to slow ...etc.

By 803056

Date 06-07-2011 03:02

I suspect the concern in this post is about the large number of welders breaking out on the API test.

I have to agree with the poster, there is something seriously wrong if the majority of the welders are failing the API pipe test. I mean, what other welding standard can you think of that accepts burn through, crater cracks, and incomplete joint penetration all in the same test coupon?

Best regards - Al :yell:

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 06-07-2011 08:07

Al,
I am surprised at you !
6.4 Visual Examination - " For a qualification weld to meet the requirements for visual examination, the weld shall be free from cracks, inadequate penetration, and burn through, and must present a neat workman-like appearance."

"Failure to meet the requirements of this subsection shall be adequate cause to eliminate additional testing."

Two of the three defects listed above can be easily observed as soon as the root pass is complete so why would you continue to let the welder hot pass, fill and cap when he already has root defects that are cause to fail the test ?

Regards,
Shane

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-08-2011 01:24

I'm more surprised at the comments !! Brent , dbk,Shane have u ever drove 1500 miles to take a test and got there on money u hocked your granddad's deer rifle for and had a fuzz faced punk who don't know pipe has a hole in it look and judge your skills prolly not or you'd see my point !! I don't care how many books you read or pictures u look at you don't know what a weld is supposed to look like unless you have done it before !! I'm not carrying on this conversation anymore y'all need a reality check or a nap in the gravel ! Bye best regards Johnny Walker

By 803056

Date 06-08-2011 02:43 Edited 06-08-2011 17:53

Shane, you are right. I freely admit I got carried away a bit with the acceptance criteria. There was no reason for my sarcasm. However, I would like to refer readers to API 1104-2005, clause 6.3.1 for multiple qualifications. In particular I would like to direct them to the fifth paragraph regarding burn-through.

Just because some welder gets his undies in a twist because he couldn’t pass a qualification test is no justification for me to carry on. After all, he might be right on all counts. I wasn’t there to witness the test or to mediate the situation that existed between the inspector and the welder. It could be that the welder's attitude simply pissed the inspector off. Anyone that has tested welders for more than a few weeks has run into a few that thought they could fix anything other than the crack of dawn or a broken heart. They are usually the ones the fall flat on their nose in short order.

I wish I kept track of how many welders I’ve tested that were insulted because they had to test on the job site regardless of their previous qualifications. It is usually the case that the ones that object the loudest are the ones that blow a hole in the backing bar, burn through the root and leave a keyhole the size of a dime, complain about arc blow, whine that their machine wasn’t hitting on all cylinders, or talk about the hard night of drinking the night before the test. That fact that they failed the test was because the stars weren’t aligned correctly or it was everyone else’s fault other than their own.

My point is that it isn’t the inspector’s fault if the welder isn’t in tip top shape to pass the test. Nor is it the inspector’s fault if the equipment the welder supplies aren’t operating properly. It is the welder’s responsibility to make sure he is ready to test when he shows up for the test. The test is the welder’s opportunity to demonstrate he possesses the minimum skills required to pass the test. If he fails to do that, there are few to blame other than himself.

Just in case anyone asks; yes I did burn rod for a living before passing the CWI examination and yes I did pass my pipe qualification as well as my plate tests on carbon steel, aluminum, stainless, nickel, and titanium. Yes, I passed my qualification tests using SMAW, GMAW, GTAW, FCAW, and SAW at different points in my career. During that time I never found it necessary to blame the inspector for any of my shortcomings. Then again, I did do a pretty darn good job of taking care of Dawn. :wink:

Best regards - Al

By js55

Date 06-08-2011 11:45

"Just because some welder gets his undies in a twist because he couldn’t pass a qualification test is no justification for me to carry on."

This sentance is so interesting on so many levels. I bout spit my coffee out. :lol:

By 803056

Date 06-08-2011 17:59

I figured someone would get a good laugh.

Al

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-09-2011 23:57

He was getting his knickers in a knot over a test he had NOT taken yet!
But by now Thursday he is either working or hustling a test.
Should have his hand in by now.
But I agree there was something there that was not coming though.

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-10-2011 03:11

I didn't want anyone dead yeah I passed I'm just tired of inspectors who ain't never welded and think they know it all when in reality they ain't gotta freakin clue ! Gravel nap= T300 up side the cranium but not dead

By js55

Date 06-10-2011 11:43

Maybe inspectors are sick and tired of guys who call themselves welders and aren't. :lol:

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-10-2011 13:00

[quote]Maybe inspectors are sick and tired of guys who call themselves welders and aren't.[/quote]

LOL...Jeff, you may be on to something there...... :wink:

By js55

Date 06-10-2011 13:33

I know I've posted this before but I once had a 'welder' testing for me ask where the striker was for a tig torch. I am dead serious.
We once had so many guys busting we went from our standard entry 6" 6G to a 5G to a 5G top quarter just to get enough guys to get the work out (we were able to get some 1G guys for SAW/FCAW roll outs). And we still busted around 50% of them. You can bet your spotty fat ass I was looking guys out on roots/tacks or carrying their test bucket funny, if they showed any signs of struggle.
It was no ego trip. It was survival.
Oh, and by the way, the striker guy didn't even get to light up. How could he. He didn't have a striker in his test bucket.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-10-2011 14:11

Jeff,
He must have been used to the old equipment, they build those strikers into the machine now.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-23-2011 16:24

Hey Al, I knew her too! :wink:

Hey Johnny, did you pass or did you also break out? I ask this because there isn't any shame in busting out a test or two in your welding career. :eek:

In other words, you show me someone who has never busted a test and I'll show you a welder that's still wet behind the ears and sooner or later, their time will come. :eek:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-25-2011 02:03

Ive busted my share and been looked out a few too many times is my point but I passed this one and been on firing line for 2 weeks and ran hot passes for 2 weeks no repairs yet !

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-08-2011 05:57 Edited 06-10-2011 16:34

Edit:
Removing harsh response after hearing much better words from much better people.

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-08-2011 18:40

SO YOUR SAYING I HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING AN INSPECTOR??????

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-23-2011 16:28

Mike,

Don't get a "wedgie" every time someone makes a comment in which you personally might take offense to... It's not professional behavior Mike. :roll:

Especially when your name was NOT specifically mentioned in the post. :eek:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-23-2011 19:54

stop harrassing me ...Ok
Get it.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-24-2011 02:49

???????????????????????????????????????

GROW UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-24-2011 13:57

I ask you to stop following me from thread to thread trying to get me to fight with you….and I need to grow up?

By qcrobert (***)

Date 06-24-2011 20:26

Mike, turn around, I think you have two on!!!!

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 06-24-2011 23:00

lol

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-25-2011 08:03 Edited 06-25-2011 08:08

I've been on this forum way before you son so get it straight through your thick skull that you don't own this!!! You're a real jerk! You say alot of crap in here yet, when someone calls you on your crap, you yell harrassment... What a clown! It sure shows your maturity level... Like I said before... Grow up already!

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-09-2011 16:41

Johnny,

A few details, I got my first pipe cert in 1978. That was more than a couple years ago. I am still pipe and plate certified and am now a CWI as well doing Special Inspections and TPI work.

More than once when doing the travelling gig I had to rob the kids piggy banks to get gas money to get to a job. I once got a call on Tuesday and asked to show up Wednesday to work at a site 1500 miles from my home. Told them I could be there Thursday and they said go for it. Finished business at home, robbed the piggy banks, drove for 24 hours straight (speed limits were only 55 mph back then) and went from sea level to 7000 ft elevation at the job site. The minute I pulled in they set me up and I ran qualification coupons. Passed them all.

Many of us have been there. We DO know what it's like. And we have busted tests as well and went home with our tails between our legs and bone tired to boot from making the effort. It is still no cause to criticize what you don't know. The inspector may be dead wrong, but unless you have ALL the info he is working to it is no more his fault than it is yours. As previously stated, the code is not the only criteria being used to judge your performance. He must also go by the customer specs in the WPS for the job. Did you read all that material to make sure you were performing the test properly?

Oh well. I still think there are other motives at play here.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By north_fl_cwi (*)

Date 06-15-2011 01:58

I would have to disagree. I do NOT think you have to be a seasoned welder, or have ever run a bead to be a good inspector. In fact, I would rather "my" inspectors are NOT welders. I have had better luck training and using the inspectors that are NOT welders than ones that are. But that could just be the people I have came into contact with.

And I do NOT find it hard to believe 50 out of 100 or even 90 out of 100 welders failed a test. I have been to 5 day long test with 20 welders per day and have had several instances where we only got 4-5 welders qualified after the whole week. And some of those 4-5 were retest. Just because they show up at a test site doesn't mean they are welders. I can't tell you how many people I have busted out before they ever even picked up the lead. When a guy ask me if HIS machine is setup right for him, he's out. When a guy ask if his amps are set right for him, he's out. When a guy ask if we have a "red" machine because that is what they used in school, THEY ARE OUT (true story and not that long ago).

I was once the "new" inspector that believed I had to give the welders a break. That lasted until 4-5 of those guys I let slide in the booth (when other inspectors busted them out) started showing up on my jobs in the field and can't make a good weld on the site to save their life. I found out pretty quickly, if you can't make the weld in the booth under ideal conditions..... you are NOT going to cut it in the field either.

By 99205

Date 06-08-2011 05:59 Edited 06-08-2011 06:10

This is kind of a long read but it answers the question about why Inspectors need to be serious about their job.

http://www.weldreality.com/bad%20weld%20section.htm

The bottom line is, do it right or people die.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 06-08-2011 21:37

IF a 100 tested and 96 busted that is either ridiculous (bs) parameters by an inexperienced person writing them or a lost inspector not interpreting the "code" correctly. I have tested to one of the hardest dang tests I think there is in the aircraft world and we had about an 85-90% failure rate, having said that 50% of the candidates had no business even trying to take the test to begin with (buddy system/poor communication with personnel".

NOW for the flip side which for some reason we never hear about. How about an inspector seeing your root and writing you up and handing over papers?   WHAT??? that never happens? Sure it does, happened to me for the third time in my life recently. Is THAT right or ok? Of course it is every bit JUST as bad or truly even worse then looking out a guy before the test is finished (I have to agree tho you can bust some people over just tacks or fit-up or a root pass...that is just truth there is no arguing with it). Did I accept the papers handed to me? Yes of course I did, I did offer to finish out the test...but the words I got where "why it is wasting your time and mine?"   I will not say who it was or where or when but ...it does happen, for some dang reason we do not hear about those though?!?! For those of you worried about my work that cert was for a job where it all got tested/inspected anyway but technically I should not have got the work in the first place because the test was not conducted properly.

Inspectors are human just like welders...we all are subject to a bad day...long time off the stinger/rod, bad day with the family or whatever emotional problems we carry around.....they screw up just like welders do. I am not trying to preach and defend inspectors in general ...I am defending us all as human beings...WE ALL "F(*^&*(^K" up and do not do the right thing from time to time...as long as we do it right most of the time we are on the right track.   IF you know you did it right and you got stepped on, it just sucks, but you just got to move on and forget it...do not take it personal...SOMETIMES it is just bad luck of the draw or what have you.   I can never blame an inspector "because I use to be able to do it" tho...if I am rusty, not up to snuff, just missed laying that last rod...well that is my problem...I will never ever ever EVER run every rod/bead/weld perfect...it is just what I strive for...it cannot ever be achieved.   In other words, maybe the inspector was an ass and did wrong maybe he did not....he is human and can screw up just as easily as any of us. THAT IS just the way it is.....we all got to live with it and carry on. I have failed my share of tests including ones I have passed before but that does not stop me from testing out on stuff I never seen before...I learn from it and try again.

From what I know of you Johnny you are a top notch rig welder, probably WAY better then me ...so I know it is not the first time it has happened to you....you just got to move on and get the next job on the line bro. THERE is no worse (welding) feeling then spending money on fuel/rods/time and busting all that expense. I guess that is why only the risk takers make the big bux eh?

My $.02
tOMMY

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 06-09-2011 17:19

There are 3 types of inspectors. 1) those that know they are good and can prove it, but don't have to say it 2) those that hope they are good enough and are willing to listen, and 3) those that have spent more time saying how good they are than they have spent actually inspecting.

This also applies to welders; that is..the 3 types.

It's too bad that you have run into difficult inspectors. I do know that there are some who like to inject their own opinion to weld test inspection. Some of them enjoy putting down others to make themselves feel good, and that should not be the case. And that gives a bad impression of all inspectors.

I too am an inspector. I won't say that I'm good. I will say that I make mistakes. I try very hard to be fair to welders, and I make it a point to make sure the welder is the first to know the test results. I will not discuss with anyone else as to why the welder failed. I don't know how to make GTAW welds - just never went in that direction. I do know how to make SAW, SMAW, FCAW, and GMAW welds. I used to do that all the time. Today, I'm rusty so you probably wouldn't want to hire me as your welder until I practiced and passed your weld test. Someday I may have to do that but not today. I do know what a good weld should look like per the code, and i do know that if the root doesn't go in properly then there is no point going any further with that plate. That's true whether I am taking the test or giving it. If I see that your weld is poor through no fault of yours, I will let you start over with a new plate. If you are clearly struggling, then -sorry- game over- I have a lot to do - there's the practice area - let me know when you think you're ready. But you have to run 2 tests to make up for the failure or come back after you receive more training- I'll show you where it says that in the code. I may or may not be a good inspector but I appreciate being gainfully employed and this is what I'm expected to do. I have to explain why if I don't.

So - now- what's your story? Why did you fail? I wasn't there so I cannot refute anything you tell me. I do know there are some arrogant inspectors out there. I also know there are some arrogant welders. In fact, arrogance knows no boundaries.
As long as you know that you do the best you are able to do, and that you treat others respectfully (even if you are provoked)- then you will eventually land a good welding job. The best way to do that is to be type 1 or type 2.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 06-09-2011 19:55

Chet is being very modest here. True words of wisdom.

He Is a GREAT inspector and a GREAT Chief Inspector for his company. He is a QC inspector with a multi-faceted company and he has Third Party Inspectors on him all the time. I'm sure he has seen good, mediocre and bad inspectors by the dozens! I know he has seen the three types of welders he described by the hundreds! He has tested welders hundreds of times!

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-10-2011 11:15

I agree 100% with Joe's assessment of Chet's abilities. Mary Johnsen even did an article on him and his inspection career awhile back in the Inspection Trends magazine. I use some of his golden nuggets of wisdom everyday in some form or fashion. Chet has been a great asset to the AWS forum over the years.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 06-10-2011 20:40

Joe, John,
Thank you for your kind words - it is much appreciated.

But this is about Johnny Walker's post. He has a valid point in that there are some inspectors (as well as cops, bankers, and English teachers) that enjoy making others miserable. That is an unfortunate fact of life.
I know there are at least two or three "welders" out there that think I am a miserable old goat (Hey, I'm only 55 - don't call me old!).

The point is that there will always be another side to the story. I have learned to look at a person's welds and to overlook the sideways ball cap, the 50 pounds of piercings, and the pants sagging to the bottom of their butt cheeks. (I have always wondered about the corks in the ear lobes but then I realized we can hook carabiners in the holes to haul them out of confined spaces.) Many of those folks do a great job welding.

I have also learned that many of the people that say they are good - really are not. Look at what a person does, not what he says he does.

But what is really amazing is how much some folks get so worked up over hearsay comments. They set themselves up for failure because their attitude is jaundiced from the start.

Johnny Walker, I hope that you do/did well on your test. If you did not, then I hope you learned something that will help you later on. And mostly, I hope you learn that the miserable inspectors you speak of are a small minority.

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 06-10-2011 21:50

Passed all my tests no tattoos or hole other than ones I was born with wranglers sag a little cause I work my azz off thanks