TIG - Miller 180SD or Lincoln 175 Pro?

Date 01-28-2004 19:35

Anyone? I'm not trying to start a brand war here. I really need to purchase a machine soon (in the next couple of weeks) and I honestly just don't know which one is best. Otherwise I'm just relying on the salesman who may push the more expensive one.

Again, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Vader

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-28-2004 20:03

Ok I'll chime in.

Have you tried 5356 aluminum filler on Pop's machine? It is a bit more rigid than 4043 and in many cases its enough to make a job doable without a push pull. Before putting down your coin I would try this first.

For beauty beads Lincoln and Miller both make fine machines, and so do others. You will want manual balence control with as much percision as you can afford, variable frequency is a plus if you have the bucks.

Community college semesters are beginning right now. You could contact the welding department and see if they have an affordable night class that would suit you specifically. Many night classes are flexible, you might even be allowed to bring in one of your projects and try out a variety of power sources and processes to find out what is best for your need. By doing this you test out machines and processes for virtually free, gain access to a professional who will share invaluable "tricks of the trade" and get a grade for doing it.

By Vader

Date 01-28-2004 21:55

Hey Lawrence,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have tried 5356. It did work better, but still had some "bird-nesting" and feeding issues. In fact I tried 5356 and 4043 in .030 and in .035. The 5356 worked best in the .035, but burned through my 1/8" aluminum tubing very easily. I experimented a lot and found that most of my trouble came when changing out the spools. The wire kept getting hung up in the liner. At one point I literally had to take the gun apart, so the liner would be straight, then feed the liner (with wire fed through) into the curved part of the gun again. This took some time to say the least...10 minutes later it bird nested again. Way too frustrating to deal with.

Thanks for the info on which features I should look for. I am looking into a TIG class at my local Vo-Tech school. I just hope there is a night class or weekend class available.

Thanks again,
Chris

By jfolk

Date 01-28-2004 22:16

Vader,

I own and use on a regular basis a Lincoln SquareWave TIG 175. I bought it new in 1996 and really like it. I weld alot of aluminum, stainless and carbon steel with it, both TIG and Stick. No complaints. I think you would like it just fine for 1/16" and 1/8" material. I also own a Millermatic 135, no complaints. Never had a minutes problem out of either. If you have ever gas welded, oxy-acetylene, most times you will pick up TIG skill with practice.

John Folk

By Vader

Date 01-29-2004 16:15

Looks like the Miller 180 SD has manual balance control, but not variable frequency control. The Lincoln seems to have neither.

I found another thread about the HTP INVERTIG 200 which has both.

My local welding supplier has the Miller 180 SD for $1600. I know the HTP can be had for $1900. Probably well worth the extra $300, but I'm a little hesitant to buy a machine that isn't sold or serviced by anyone locally.

My understanding is that Variable Frequency control allows you to increase the frequency in order to control the width/size of your bead...correct?

If so, this feature would be important to me. To do my furniture, I'd like my welds as small, clean and precise as possible.

Thanks in advance for any more input!
Vader

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-29-2004 20:50

The Invertig is just what I had in mind when I mentioned "others machines."

In theory it has the maximum bang for the buck. But if it falls off your workbench can it be fixed? If the answer is yes than Miller is in trouble or will be forced into a price war (I'm a dreamer).

Why not pick up the phone and talk to one of the HTP reps and see what they say, while keeping a wisely skeptical attitude if they have no local vendors.

By Vader

Date 01-29-2004 21:49

That's my next step. I'll call Miller and HTP directly.
My local sales rep doesn't seem to be much help.

Thanks again,
Vader

By Vader

Date 01-30-2004 04:00

I've done a ton of reading tonight. The Thermal Arc Pro-Wave 185 looks like a REALLY sweet deal. $1600 or so. It's an inverter machine (Good because I think my 220 outlet in my garage is on a 60 Amp circuit) It has variable frequency control (10-185 AC) and wave balance control.

And, opposed to the HTP machine (which looks great) my local welding distributors do carry and service Thermal Arc machines. Extra peace of mind.

Considering I'll mainly be welding 1/16" - 1/8" aluminum, do you think this machine will fit the bill?

Again, thanks in advance for any advice.
Vader

By 357max

Date 02-01-2004 03:26

Question, will the machine with variable AC frequency allow maximum amperage at maximum frequency? Or, is there a limit to the amperage at maximum frequency or is there a limit to the frequency at maximum amperage? If so you would be buying half a machine. This is a very important question to ask your supplier. If they don't know, find out.

By gassedup Date 02-01-2004 21:43

Where did you see that HTP for $1900?? The cheapest I have seen it was $2200 on sale??? I have an HTP mig that I did have problems with but Jeff (owner) went the extra yard to correct problem. Good company. I am making same decision you are and am just as confused with the options. Post what you buy I am curious. That Thermal acr does look interesting but I think I will go with the Miller unless I can get that HTP at the $1900 which drwas the lowest amps for home shop.

By Vader

Date 02-02-2004 05:06

Hey GassedUp,

While doing a search for HTP invertig I found an old thread:
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?id=2153

There's a guy in this thread that talked the HTP guys down to $1900. Bear in mind that this was March of 2002, so that deal may be hard to come by. Looks like they'll negotiate with you though.

I'm sure HTP makes good stuff and that they stand behind their products. I think I'd rather have that machine to be honest with you, but I've been burned before in the past when buying expensive merchandise from small companies with no local support/service.

My concerns are...."What if they go out of business?" I sure hope they don't cause it looks like they make quality stuff, but I don't want to be stuck with a $2000 machine that can't be serviced if something goes wrong.

I know that Thermal-Arc has recently come out of bankruptcy, so you could make the same argument about the Pro-Wave 185. But, I believe that with their reputation and brand loyalty (especially for their plasma cutters) someone would buy the company, pick up support and service.

I am also concerned about the amps required to operate the welder. I'll also be using this in my home shop. The Thermal Arc draws 29 (opposed to 25 for the HTP). I'd call that even. A friend of mine who is a project manager for an oilfield construction company got a "special price" on the Thermal Ac for me through his supplier. $1450 for the welder, ground, torch, stick and power cord. You can't beat that with a stick! Not bragging...just thankful to know someone who can help me out.

I'm going to do some more research before buying anything. I need to make sure that the Frequency control isn't tied to Amp output. I'm also looking into taking an aluimnum TIG course at my local Vo-Tech school. It may be a good idea to get some experience with a TIG before buying. Plus, I'll have a veteran instructor to council me on which machine to buy. Unless there is something about the Thermal Arc that is glaringly bad, it'll be hard to beat.

Vader

By moodymike Date 02-03-2004 19:02

I just bought a lincoln 175 for $1474 with free shipping and no sales tax. It is a great machine and very easy to use.
My first day using it my welds on steel were nicer and cleaner than all my years of welding with mig, same with ss (I had never tiged before). Now aluminum on the other hand is a different story. Thats going to take a little practice. The welder comes with a cheesy instruction video, but good enough to get the basics, it just takes practice.

By Vader

Date 02-03-2004 19:32

I called Thermal Arc today. Looks like the Pro-Wave 185's frequency control is independant of the Amp output. So, you can have the full 185 amps and have the highest frequency dialed in at the same time.

Thanks for the heads up.

I've ruled out the old transformer machines like the Lincoln 175 and Miller 185 simply because they draw too many amps (65-75 amps) for my house garage to handle. Therefore it has to be an inverter machine (25-29 amps). The Millers and Lincolns are very nice but much more expensive than the HTP or Thermal Arc.

By Laiky

Date 02-04-2004 17:40

Hey Vader? is that the same vader from 3rdgen.org?? I'm in the same boat looking for an Inverter!

By Vader

Date 02-04-2004 21:46

Different Vader.

Actually it's my username from a Dodge Truck owners site (http://www.dodgetrucks.org and http://www.dodgetalk.com)

I have a new all-black Dodge Ram, so Vader was appropriate.

Does the guy over at 3rdgen.org have a black Camaro or Firebird?

I'd take a hard look at the Thermal Arc 185. The Lincolns and Millers are fine machines, but they're over $1000 more expensive w/o the torch and accessories which can easily add up to $500 or so.

This AC/DC inverter is 10-185 Amps AC/5-185 DC, has AC frequency control, wave balance control, squarewave technology, hi-freq. start/lift start, TIG pulse, pulls only 29 AMPS from the wall, and weighs only 41.2 lbs....all for $1750 or so including your torch, ground, power cord & stick. I don't think you can beat the deal if you're on a budget like I am.

I'll be ordering mine with a week or so.

Vader

By SUBLIME (*)

Date 02-05-2004 00:25

Vader. Where are you planning on ordering from? I too have been looking at the Miller 180SD and the Lincoln 175 SP, but the though of drawing so little amps intrigues me too.

By Vader

Date 02-05-2004 17:19

I'm ordering from a local welding supplier, but through a friend's company's account, so I'm getting a better deal than I could on the internet.

Vader

By 49DegreesNorth (**)

Date 02-05-2004 01:22

You guys might want to take a look at the Lincoln Invertec V205T.

I have one; everyone likes the machine they have!

Chris

By Laiky

Date 02-05-2004 03:56

Well to be honest, i don't know what color his camaro is. He is a moderator on thirdgen.org

I've been comparing the Miller to the Lincoln and it looks like the miller has a few more features whilke being marginally cheaper. its still like 2200 without accessories!

I will be looking into the machine you suggested because i too am on a budget

By dseman

Date 02-05-2004 04:36

Well, not to be a stick in the mud, but if you look at the specs for the invertec v205-t you find that if you are using a square-wave ac waveform, the limit is 170 amps if the ac frequency is > 85hz. If you are < 85hz, then the machine operates to 200amps. So you may want to keep that in mind.This is the issue that 357max brought up earlier. Also, if you want to stick weld with it, Lincoln doesn't recommend using E6010, whereas with the Miller Dynastys they will run E6010 just fine. I personally haven't tried E6010 on the T/A 185 though. You may want to bring a selection of materials to the dealer so you can demo the units for yourself and determine what is and isn't important to you.

-dseman

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-05-2004 13:02

Here is the trick on the Frequency Vs Amperage ratio.

There is no benefit of high frequency at amps over 100 for about 99 percent of GTAW aluminum work.

High frequency (in AC Hz.) is beneficial for stability and directional control at low amps. This just isn't a problem at 170 amps or more. If your nearing 200 amps and are looking for a little more Oomph, you will get it by lowering the frequency down to 40Hz or 20 Hz. (If the strobe effect doesn't make you bonkers)

So you could call that factor a push unless your doing some really wierd stuff.

By gassedup Date 02-05-2004 15:41

I am going to call HTP today to verify pricing. It seams there are a lot others looking for entry level machines. My fear is getting stuck with a welder that I have to replace in a year because I have outgrown it. I can mig weld just about anything but am honest enough to say I am lost with the tig process. I have read just about every book but it is time to try it out. My limitations are also low amps in garage that limits machines. I do not beleive ANY of the Lincolns or Millers at any price will run under 30 amps?? Please let me know if I am wrong as it would make search a lot easier as there are plenty on their dealers near me.

By Vader

Date 02-05-2004 17:20

I'm pretty sure that both entry-level Lincoln and Miller inverters draw less than 30 amps also. They're just $1000 more expensive than the Thermal-Arc.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice and technical information. Most of it is a little over my head (having not used a TIG before), but I think I've asked enough questions to conclude that the machine I'm getting (T/A 185) will do what I want it to do.

Vader

By Laiky

Date 02-05-2004 19:03

hey vader, thanks for the tip.

So far i like the thermal arc, but i have never heard of them before. Ebay has them as a kit for 1800 vs 2600 for the miller. the only thing i really wanted that the miller does is run on 110. There are a few options that i don't fully understand but i will probably make some calls. i'm not in too big of a hurry!

By Vader

Date 02-06-2004 01:28

Thermal Arc is a very reputable company. The parent company is Thermadyne with brands: Thermal Arc (welders), Tweco (mig guns and TIG torches), Thermal Dynamics (plasma cutters), Victor (oxy-acetylene welding/cutting) + they do robotics and heavy industry stuff too.

http://www.thermadyne.com

Vader

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 02-06-2004 03:07

Hi Vader!
I noticed that you're relatively new to this forum so if you have'nt been welcomed before well then - WELCOME!!!
I would suggest to conduct some more research (practical, features specific, and warranty service limitations) before you make the decision to "broadcast" your opinion on which brand or manufacturer of welding equipment is considered superior when compared to other "reputable" brands/manufacturers...

Here's a tip... look in your local or regional B to B or yellow pages and look for welding equipment repair shops. Call them up and ask around!!! Ask them which equipment/power sources they consider the most reliable!
Remember that they service most brands and models so they're not going to be afraid to suggest a particular brand that gives them the least headaches to service and gives the best performance for your money!!!
Anywho, whichever brand you decide to purchase - I wish you the best of luck!!! I personally prefer Miller's inverters if you must know but, the Lincoln inverters are getting better also...
As far as Thermal Arc is concerned which used to be Thermal Dynamics, they are well known for their plasma cutting equipment before they got swallowed up into the conglomerate that is known today as Thermadyne... I'm not saying that all of their products are inferior when compared to the previous 2 brands I mentioned... I just heard alot more mixed reviews regarding the Thermal Arc inverters.
Whatever brand you decide on, stick with the American brands even though most of these so-called american brands are really being manufactured in one form or another somewhere else!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By Vader

Date 02-09-2004 20:30

SSBN727,

Hey, thanks for the welcome.

I'm a little confused about something though...
When did I claim that one brand was superior to another? I simply did not do that. I did say that Thermal Arc was a reputable company, but that statement has nothing to do with the reputations of Miller, Lincoln, Esab or whoever. I never said any brand was superior over another...ever.

And I did do quite an enormous amount of research before purchasing this welder. I talked to my local welding sales/service people, a project forman friend of mine who orders supplies and welders for a living, and to my soon-to-be TIG instructor...not to mention tons of research here and other welding forums like the one at http://www.hobartwelders.com

The last thing I ever intended to do was start a "brand war." I think that kind of thinking is very juvenile. Everyone has their preferences. I drive a Dodge Ram. My best friend drives a Chevy Silverado. What I wanted to do here was to ask questions and educate myself. Learn the differences between the machines. I learned some very important things and was simply sharing my findings.

As I stated in previous responses...Miller and Lincoln make fine welding machines. Arguably the best! The truth is, I cannot afford a Miller or Lincoln inverter as they are over $1000 more expensive than my budget allows. But there are "options" one of which is the Thermal Arc 185. Based on my research, I believe this is a "good" machine, not necessarily the "best." I never suggested that anyone else buy this machine, but thought it would be helpful to make others (on a budget) aware that there some alternatives. That's it.

I do resectfully thank you for the advice. Through this forum, I've gained a tremendous amount of knowledge in a very short amount of time. It's great to have access to such experienced people. I just think that you may have misunderstood some statements and made some assumptions.

Later,
Vader