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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Penetrant Testing
- - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2011 13:27
I have a question about dye penetrant testing.If you fine a place where the dye has came throught the developer and you clean it off and grind the tiny spot do you have to use the penetrant again to retest are can you just put the developer back on and see if the dye still comes throught.

         M.G.

I'm new at this so any feed back would be helpful.I have worked with guys that did this but I never thought of the question untill now. I know some one here knows.
     Thanks
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-20-2011 13:36
M.G.

You have to start all over....clean, reapply, dwell, wipe off, developer....etc...
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-20-2011 14:58
John is right... For "inspection"

But especially with aluminum castings,  I keep my developer near at hand and will grind than spray, grind then spray, Until I seen no indication.. Then I will clean and move forward with the inspection process from the start again.  If the indication comes back, than continue rework.  If the indication is gone, then it's a win.  

Always keep in mind that grinding can smear or clog a discontinuity that has penetrant in it and mask an indication..  So if your re-spraying developer while routing an indication *don't* consider it an inspection.

To keep terms precice I would call the technique I'm describing. A penetrant "check" while in the process of making the repair.  Not an inspection.   Again.. Following all routing operations, perform the complete inspection, with cleaning, application/dwell, emulsification (if necessary) rinse and developer; In other words (following your procedure)
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2011 16:18
Thanks for all of the incite from everybody, learn something ever day this is a good career to be in and I like doing it ever day.
      M.G.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 07-20-2011 17:07
Lawrence is correct in stating by procedure you must start all over, first with cleaning, drying time, penetrant application, dwell time, then developer to insure a proper inspection/examination.

However, as he also stated, our shop welders use any method they wish to insure that all relevant indications have been removed before calling me to perform PT.

QCRobert
SNT-TC-1A Level II PT & MT
Attachment: PT.jpg (36k)
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2011 17:45
This is what we trying to do before we send them out to a outside source to be checked. Hope to save time you know what I'm saying.
         
               M.G.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 07-20-2011 17:54
Yes, good protocal to do so.

If this is required and you have to send to an outside source, your company should think about sending you to a seminar & certification school as my company did me.  Thus saving your company money by performing in-house PT.

My company produces wood handling equipment (conveyors, cyclones, pop filters, feeders, blowers, electrostatic precipitators, tanks, silos and "U" stamped pressure vessels including "PP" power piping.

May I ask what your company fabricates?

QCRobert
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2011 19:12
We do defense contract work for the Government and other things.

   M.G.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 07-20-2011 19:24 Edited 07-20-2011 19:27
All the more likely your company should have you as their SNT-TC-1A Level II PT person!

You if are interested, I would gladly give you all the information about the process and attaining the certification.

PM me any time.  Always ready to help out a fellow Alabamian....:grin:

QCRobert
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-20-2011 20:12 Edited 07-20-2011 20:15
Just to throw a stick on the fire; you can use the "bleed back" method if you are attempting to establish whether you have excavated deep enough to remove the defect.

The discontinuity contains a volume of penetrant. The volume retained is referred to as the reservoir. A certain amount of the penetrant will exude from the discontinuity and spread through the developer to produce a stain and magnify the apparent size of the discontinuity.

When you attempt to remove the discontinuity by grinding or using a rotary file (burr), you may smear the soft aluminum thereby sealing the opening connecting it to the surface. However, if you don’t smear the metal, the penetrant remaining within the discontinuity will continue to exude and will continue to produce an indication as long as there is penetrant remaining in the reservoir and there is an opening to the test surface.

The bleed back technique is often used to confirm whether the indication is a false indication or a true indication. It can also be used to better characterize the nature of the discontinuity causing the indication. A very large reservoir will produce a brilliant indication as soon as the non aqueous developer has dried. The bleed back technique produces an indication at a slower rate because there is less penetrant in the reservoir after each test.

There is always a concern that metal removal operations will smear soft metal. Whether or not you repeat the entire penetrant test is not going to produce indication (stain) if the opening (discontinuity) to the test surface is smeared and sealed. Many aerospace specifications require an additional etching operation before the penetrant test to ensure any smeared metal is removed.

The problem of smearing soft metal is always a concern when a weld is finished by grinding, machining, or sanding. I will usually tap the surface of a finished (sanded or ground) aluminum weld searching for signs of porosity. Lightly tapping the surface of the weld with a stiff bristled stainless steel brush will produce little dimples if there is any porosity sealed with smeared metal. I “pop” the smeared metal with a pencil point, then perform the penetrant test or send the part out for etching.

My advice is to use the bleed back technique, i.e., wipe the area with a dry clean wipe and reapply the developer. If the defect still has an open path to the test surface the indication will reappear. Exercise some care that the test piece isn’t ground with such force that it becomes hot enough to dry the penetrant remaining in the reservoir. If the indication reappears, continue to excavate metal. If the stain does not reappear, repeat the test, but keep in mind any smeared metal can and will seal the opening, thus no indication will form even if the defect is still there. 

There is more to the certification process than getting x-hours of training and taking a test. Your employer has to engage the services of an Examiner (Level III) that is qualified per NAVSEA TP271 if you are working to NAVSEA TP278. The Examiner has to develop a written practice and penetrant procedures that have to be reviewed and approved by your customer before you can implement them in your shop. Likewise, any laboratory that is providing testing services for your employer has to have all the approved procedures in place before they can perform NDT on your employer's behalf. Your employer should have submitted the laboratory's written practice and penetrant procedures to your customer before awarding them any work. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-20-2011 20:25
Bravo!
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 07-20-2011 21:11
Very good stick to throw in the fire, Al!

We also use the bleed back technique (sometimes with a QueTip) occassionally to locate suspect defects.  And good point on smearing metal, esp aluminum, that can mask the discontinuity.

There is definitely more to the certification process than getting x-hours of training and taking a test.  And it isn't cheap by any means.  But having the written practice, procedures, and ability to perform NDE in-house has saved my company (the one I work for) a considerable amount of money each year.

QCRobert
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-20-2011 23:47
The reason I ask the question this morning about having to redo everything was to speed things up,but I was checking the parts the way you where supposed to, I grounded all the starts and stops with a 120 grit zirconium disc. as I was welding the part and brushing them with a stainless steel brush.They sent two parts to the outside source and they pasted so I know now you can't cut corners.

Thanks for everyones help, I learn a little more today thanks for this Forum. Like some one said THIS IS THE WORLDS GREATS FORUM.
M.G.

P.S. It takes a lot of time to check a part if you check it the right way,I didn't have a clue, but it does save the company money and keep them off my BUT.
- - By jbndt (**) Date 07-23-2011 21:31
“Exercise some care that the test piece isn’t ground with such force that it becomes hot enough to dry the penetrant remaining in the reservoir.”

Sometimes the ‘shop inspectors’ (NO certs required) can do so much “pre-inspection verification” (dye-pen) that the discontinuities are filled with so much dried up dye that the cleaner can’t remove it!

Apparently the etchant didn’t remove it either …
Etch, Clean, Pen, Dwell, Clean, Developer … Pass!

The client radiographed a certain percentage of the parts … Guess which one got x-rayed.
Now, guess which one failed.

I was just the lowly welder … And yes, it was my part too.

I only mention this because I was recently told by a Level III instructor that this STILL happens.

Cheers,
jb
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 07-27-2011 17:12
Some time ago, I was asked to bring a die-grinder and dye penetrant materials to a jobsite - to remove some cracks found in a steel gear shaft.  The cracks were thought to be shallow (they were - but that's a side point).
I didn't have PT materials on hand but I did have MT.
I ground out where indicated and the 3rd party inspector checked them with his PT materials.  Results were good so we moved to the next spot.  Now the PT developer was used up so we switched to MT partway through that location.  MT clearly showed the cracks were not yet removed - even though the PT did not show any indications.  And even more cracks were evident than was originally found with the PT.

Turns out that PT had been done routinely as part of in-service inspection.  MT was not used because it was feared the powder would work into the bearings and wear them prematurely.  But this time the system was shut down for rehab and it was in the scope to replace the bearings.  PT was being used simply "because that's what they used before".
Well, it was theorized that the PT was never properly cleaned (very tight spaces when in-service) and that the penetrant had filled the cracks and congealed enough that fresh penetrant would not work into the cracks.  Only the larger cracks would show indications.

I am not  PT level III but I have always remembered that situation and I tend not to trust a lack of PT indications if testing has been done more than twice in the same place.  Same thing if the repair area has been heated from welding or grinding.  I don't know what the practical limitation is for PT but I favor MT for those reasons.
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-27-2011 23:31
We sent two more parts to the outside source testing facility's the other day and they came back O K. It is what AL and a few others said when you grind a spot I alway's take a SS brush made for a die-grinder and brush them off again and re-check from the start, it take's a lot of time but that what it take's to make sure they are right. I have two more to test and I will take my time to check them good,it takes more to check the part than it does to weld it up.

                                                               M.G.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Penetrant Testing

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