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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Code question!
- - By BryantB (*) Date 09-12-2011 03:58
Hello,
    I have a question concering AWS D 17.1:2001 Code. Specifically Performace Qualification testing.  I am testing with macro etch in-house on a fillet weld (Sheet), with a thickness of about .045". When I am following the acceptance criteria for fillet welds in sheet, I've noticed there is not any information about "Suck back" or fusion which washes the through side away somewhat on the vertical member.  Is there any tolerance for how much of either member can be eroded on the through side(otherside)?

   Thanks
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-12-2011 05:09 Edited 09-12-2011 05:19
Bryant... Welcome to the forum.

Try visualizing what I'm about to say and see if it helps you answer the question.

If the fillet weld is properly sized (leg length) and there is any suckback on on the other side of the sheet metal, thickness would be reduced and,, , there could be a case of insufficient throat eh?  Any convexity in the reenforcement would not be able to salvage the weld in this case... We only look at the triangle formed with the root and toes... The root is damaged/altered by the suckback.  A 1/8" fillet with suckback is no longer an 1/8th inch.

Also.. If this is stainless or a super alloy, and the back side has melt thru without proper back purge/shielding you could gig them for sugaring.

There was some specific language about what your talking about in one of the much older DOD doccuments that D17 superseeded.  And much discussion as to why it did not move on to the new standard.

My late night suggestion would be to build a testing fixture with a way to put a heat sink/backing behind the vertical member of your test pieces.... Or only hire/qualify welders sharp enough to think of that themselves or make the weld without burn thru with their high dollar golden arms :)   

Edit:   A good aerospace welder ought to be able to make a tee joint with no burn thru on a .045 vertical member welded to a .090 base member without burn thru on the thinner member.  I know an airline that tests  .032 to .125.  They don't give any hints either.  :)

The thin to thick configuration will allow for a broader qualification range too   :)
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-12-2011 15:21
Lawrence,
  Thank you for the welcome and your reply. I have found your response helpfull. I would agree that the welders need to be capable of this welding. I probably should invest in a more accurate digital camera for the macro-etch.  I have another question.  If im qualifying to. 045" thickness material in aluminum, what kind of variance in joint member Size can I have.  Is it ruled by my thickness range  .67(t) up to 4(t) of the qualifying test plate? In other words can I have one joint member at. 045" and another at .093" that I would be qualifyed to weld?  Please excuse my lack of description im typing on a smart phone.
Thanks again!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-12-2011 17:20 Edited 09-12-2011 17:23
Bryant,

Good second question.

Look at figure 4.7  :"General note"   for your "thick to thin" notion.

Keeping in mind also... 4.3.3.1 (2)  and  4.12A & B

This refers to welder performance qualification...  Your WPS's must also be qualified for the full range of thicknesses to be done in welder performance qualification testing and production and all test welds conform to Class "A" inspection requirments. 4.4.2 and (4.3.8.1)
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-12-2011 21:37
Lawrence,
 
    So far I've understood all of this information. Although Im looking more specifically towards how much of a difference in size your allowed in your joint members. By "joint members" I mean your production weldment. For example, If your range for qualified thickness is .063" up to .380", which would mean that your procedure qualification test plate is .095".  Could you weld a production joint where one joint member is .063" thick, and another is .375" thick? 

Thanks
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-13-2011 17:13 Edited 09-13-2011 17:16
4.3.1.1  (1) & 2

4t

0.095 x 4= 0.380

The kicker is here; 

4.3.1.1  (1)   "A test weld with a base metal thickness of t shall quaify welds with a thickness range of 0.067t to 4T...")

You are asking for 0.063 which puts you out of range... Too thin.

Plus  4.3.1.1  (2)   This requires a separate fillet test for material 0.063 or less  (both PQR and Welder Performance)

The PQR test plate of 0.095 will not cover the job entirely.

That 0.004 is like the grand canyon from a certain point of view  :)

Maybe consider PQR and Welder tests including  0.63 to 0.095 fillet,  .063 plate, and .095 plate.  (the 0.095 plate would not be necessary unless you are doing groove welds in production thicker than  0.252  (0.063 x 4t) in my opinion.

It's only my opinion, but as I see it the 0.063 material you suggest to be used in production activates further PQR and Welder performance qualification requirements stated in the notes I provided.
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-13-2011 22:01
I would agree completely.  
   
Sorry I meant to say .064 to .380 for a production weldment.  Sometimes all of this weld code clutters my brain from clear thought.
    I appreciate all of the help Lawrence! 
Im trying to beef up my the weld program for the company that I work for.  Im still very green to the cwi position, and I would like to do the best job possible.

May I ask what your interest in welding is?

Thanks again
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-15-2011 16:58
He currently is one of the best welding instructors in the field today... He used to be an "Airdale" for the USN... Was the chief welding instructor for United Airlines, and is one of the best contributors to this "WORLD'S GREATEST WELDING FORUM!!!:lol::grin::yell:"

Then again maybe I'm out of line in explaining all of this to you so I'll just defer back to Larry and let him add whatever I left out or correct me if I jumped the gun here so to speak.:eek::roll::wink::cool:

I apologize Larry if I spoke too soon.:roll::wink::cool: "SNORT!"

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-16-2011 03:39
I'm glade to hear that this advice I've been given is from a distinguished souce!
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-16-2011 03:51 Edited 09-16-2011 03:53
Welcome to the AWS Welding Forum.

Distinguished in all areas, and a drastic understatement when it comes to D17. 

You have indeed heard from one of the leading experts on the topic you have asked about.

You can trust his advice.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-17-2011 04:11
Brent,
  Hello, and thank you for the welcome.  I just missed introducing myself at the section 055 meeting on wednesday at EVIT.  I have been trying lately to make it to more meetings, and to meet more people dedicated to Aws and welding in general. 
  Hopefully I can meet you in one of the next few meetings.  I would like to ask you a few questions. I'm very interested in knowing more of Aws.

Thanks

Bryant B.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-18-2011 04:26
Since it is your thread I guess this is not really a 'hijack'...SO...  Were you at the meeting at EVIT?  I don't remember hearing your name that night.  We did have a pretty good group though, especially with all the students there.  I wasn't supposed to be down in Phoenix for this one as we had just done a meeting up here in Prescott less than a week earlier.  But my wife and I had some personal and business items to take care of so we were down in Phoenix for 5 days and I went to the meeting Wed night. 

Between meetings in Phoenix, Tucson, and Prescott, then helping with welding programs at High Schools in Cottonwood, Mayer, and possibly Kingman I have been doing a lot of travelling lately.  These 2-4 hour drives one way are really taking their toll.  But the kids are worth it. 

Is it possible we have already met?  Now that I know you are in AZ the name looks a little familiar.  Ever done any inspections in Prescott area?  Do you know John with QCG? 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-18-2011 21:05
Brent,
    Yeah I was there for the meeting. I had to leave right after the group picture.  There were a lot of people there so its no wonder we didnt meet.  I'm very certain we haven't meet though.  I've only done work here in the valley, not sure if I've meet John at Qcg but i could have and just dont know it.  I have been trying hard to keep my self busy with CWI related activities; trying to keep my mind sharp.  The company i work for loves to include me in many other manufacturing operations that dont revolve around welding.  If you dont mind me asking?, are you a resident CWI at any facility.  I havent meet many people that soley work as weld inspectors, but then again I havent meet everybody.

   I would love to be able to help students out some how that they could benefit from.  Like it was mentioned in the meeting, the future needs more welders more than ever.

Bryant B.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-18-2011 23:12
You would have to know more about my shop and situation to fully understand this answer...  But the short version:  Yes, I am a resident CWI for the company I work for. 

Now, I own the company, am president of the corporation, and am currently a VERY small business.  A fabrication shop involved in several different aspects of the welding industry.  I do the in-house QA/QC for my company.

I also do Third Party Inspections at various facilities for various customers around AZ and some out of state.  Often the customer is taking delivery out of state and I monitor QC at the shop in my general vicinity before shipment to the customer's location.

I am also a Special Inspector for welding and bolting in my community.  I work through a couple different agencies/companies and for myself in this capacity. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By BryantB (*) Date 09-18-2011 23:51
That's understandable.  Its hard to get a real grasp on the whole view of a job title like that.  I would have to say that Im a little jealous you own and run your own business.  Is it like people say, "You can work whenever you want, as long as its all the time!"

Bryant B.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-19-2011 03:37
Absolutely, and you still work even when 'all' time has ended.  Worse yet, I have seven Monday's per week.  I haven't figured out where the rest of the days went.

And if you are that jealous, I'm putting the welding shop up for sale so I can focus more on inspections.  I'll make you a very good deal.  And for anyone else reading this, I will be putting it in the 'For Sale' section, I am serious.  30 years in one location, 15 under each of two owners. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By BryantB (*) Date 09-19-2011 14:52
Wow. Well I hope it sells for u.  I can imagine that it would take up most of your time.

Bryant b.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Code question!

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