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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Tungsten Inclusions in FM82H ID Bore Cladding
- - By bjbercaw (*) Date 09-16-2011 15:51
Hey guys,
We have just started receiving X-ray results from a group of parts we clad rougly a year ago and are seeing tungsten inclusions.  Our requirements are strict, .005 max inclusions, .015" max pores over a 8-11 hour ID bore cladding operation of FM82H to Carbon Steel.  We had one of the rejected parts cut up and evaluated 3 inclusions using SEM analysis.  The initial evaluation actually showed 100% tungsten w/ no sign of Thorium and we are using 2% thoriated tungsten. I have a feeling something is off with the results though because when we shot a group of tungsten with the XRF gun (including ones used on parts rejected for inclusions) we consistently showed 98% W and around 2% Bi, which probably is being mistaken for Thorium.  There’s a chance SEM may not have been able to pick up Thorium, but we are running more tests to figure that out. I guess the other alternative is the inclusions didn’t come from the electrode, and really is 100% W but I highly doubt it.   Looking at the electrode condition (looks good) it makes me second guess myself though.  Myself and another engineer were discussing how varying voltage changes the temperature of the tip of the electrode.  Increasing the voltage increases heat input into the part, but would that also increase the temperature of the electrode or would it decrease? I was hoping to get anyones initial thoughts/ideas. I will try to attach some pics.

Thanks,
Brett

[img][/img]
Attachment: TungstenSEMLabReportDraft.pdf - Lab Report (638k)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-16-2011 16:53
I think the voltage issue is unrelated and the difference seen in temperature at the point of your electrode with the changes in voltages you could produce would be negligible.

Isn't your GTAW arc voltage also used for controlling your Z axis/AVC ?   Changes in arc voltage are going to have a bigger effect in standoff distance (between the electrode and work.) 

Those are some crazy strict tollerances..   

What on earth can a 0.005 tungsten inclusion do to the mechanicals anyhow?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 09-16-2011 20:07 Edited 09-16-2011 20:14
Worked on a Peroxide system 3 years ago that specified "Zero Tunsten inclusions". In this particular case, it was not the mechanical properties, but the possibility of initiating corrosion. Bad to the bone oxidizer!
We went from scratch start, then brought in a couple of Hi-Freq units to let the 2 chosen golden arms attempt to get clean shots. Our welders were unable to meet this requirement, and finally the client agreed to RT of the root and hot pass first with the zero W in effect. Then RT the final weld to fall under B31.3 criteria.
The initial 99% RT failure rate took away all the Atta Boys we had earned up to that point.
Of course it was QC's fault for not anticipating this crisis.
Parent - By qcrobert (***) Date 09-16-2011 22:26

>Of course it was QC's fault for not anticipating this crisis<


WELL OF COURSE!

How many times have I heard THAT!
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 09-19-2011 01:49
Flat out the welders were not good enough.
This is not that tough and has been done on many nuclear power plants
BTW I did it
Just my 2 cents
Hope this helps
Thank you for time and consideration
Sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-19-2011 03:34
Kent,

The original poster is describing an automated system.

Fire the system and get one that's good enough?
Parent - - By bjbercaw (*) Date 09-19-2011 12:29
Yes it is an automated cladding process.  Has anyone had any experience with different tungsten suppliers and quality?  We are in the process of having some of our 2% Thoriated tungsten cross sectioned to evaluate grain size and oxide dispersment.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 09-20-2011 03:15
Yes,
we've had some historic issues with tungsten suppliers, mainly a manufacturer who off-shored production to China and quality went down. I don't know of a cheap and easy way to quantify bond integrity etc for the sintered electrodes.  We skirted this by sole sourcing to a single manufacturer who could provide electrodes that appear to have high uniformity.  To my knowledge there's no code required specifications past electrode alloy content, size and shape. Therefore it's a whole separate can of worms to find a supplier who is willing to lock into a tighter spec or provide a higher pedigree for their product.

Finally, we skirted around a lot of this by setting an upper limit for arc-on time for an electrode that is far below it's practical everyday limit.  Electrodes are cheap, grinders are cheap, switching them out is fast.  Seems better to limit the electrode to xx mins or xx passes, than to tie up product, welders, and NDT techs who are trying to fish out small flakes of tungsten with a slow repair procedure.
Parent - - By defaced (**) Date 09-20-2011 15:09
Yes, there is a big difference between the manufacturers.  This was discussed during the hot wire conference at the AWS show in '08.  Dispersion of the oxides in the cross section of the tungsten was one of the big issues.  Inexpensive tungstens do not have an even concentration of oxide.  We have found life and mechanical integrity to be different for each manufacturer.
Parent - By bjbercaw (*) Date 09-20-2011 19:34
I am trying to gather any literature I can find on this topic.  Do you know if any was given out at the AWS show in 08?  Thanks
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 09-20-2011 03:07
A few answers

We have done quite a bit of work evaluating tungsten inclusions on SEM's, I'll say it's not outside of the realm of possibility to see missing alloy content. In tungsten it's possible for metal vapors to condensate on the electrode and "drip" into the puddle. Some alloys will form low melt point eutectics  on the electrode and seem to preferentially attack the tungsten. Thus the "drip" will not necessarily be 98-2 W-TH  I've seen one or two odd SEM results in which the tungsten inclusion had a very high concentration of a base metal alloying agent or no thorium.  Mind you this was with automated welding where dipping was never a likely possibility.  I would put it in the round of possibility however.  Sounds like the spec is very tight, I no nothing of the service conditions, but usually we go a step further and characterize flaw major/minor dimensions, I.E a drip in a fill pass is okay because it won't have sharp corners. An electrode tip is rejectable as it creates a big notch. Different code though.

Voltage  does not correspond 1:1 with electrode surface temperature. Current density has an upper limit, after a certain point the plasma column will simply rise up the electrode and cover a greater area.  I believe this is a function of electrode potential and temperature, as the temperature of the electrode increases the resistance goes up at a certain break even point it's easier for the electrons to flow from an area further up the electrode as opposed to trying to come off the very hot tip.  If it wasn't for this theory than electrode size would not have much to do with current carrying capacity, the thermal sink is relatively small between different sized electrodes but the surface area increases exponentially.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 11-02-2011 14:13
Hi Brett

Have you had some answers from further study? Just something from my side:

The SEM analysis is not capable of finding light elements, so if your particle was Tungsten carbide (e.g. from abrasive) then the analysis would not show that, it would suggest it is W. Just see if you are able to rule out this posibility or not, as it may send you off on a needless tangent. The doped W electrodes (e.g. Th) mostly start "splitting" if the current density gets too high, so if the electrode tip looks good, you should not be loosing significant amounts of it into the weld. I assume you are using a water cooled torch to give your electrode the best chance of staying intact.

Let us know if you have further info.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - By bjbercaw (*) Date 11-03-2011 11:38
very interesting..I do have an update but am running short on time. I will update you later today.  In the meantime I put up a quick post with two pics of inclusions we had in the same part/different welds.  Notice the presence of oxides in the one, but not the other.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/forum_overview.pl?act=new;tid=29146
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Tungsten Inclusions in FM82H ID Bore Cladding

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