All good points Brent! Years ago, well, since 1995 when I got married my household has been single income and many a time have I had people say, "bless your heart, how do you survive on one income?" $30-35k income. 40 and 50 years ago dad going to work, mom staying home with the kids worked out you could pay your basic's. We rarely if ever went out, movie rentals were something we dreamed about, food at home was mac n cheese and some hamburger helper type stuff if it was on sale. Splurging for us was the time my wife would come home with a bunch of chicken wings and cut them up and make buffalo wings for us once or twice a year. You can survive on 30-35 a year and yes, there are folks out there making less. Thing with making less is these folks get government assistance, food stamps, health care. At $30-35k you make to much but it's just enough to scrape by, trust me, we know. I ended up doing side work as a mechanic, working at Toys R Us after my illustrious job fixing $60,000- $80k cars and smiling about it!
"Currently I can't even pay myself half as much as I pay the help."
That seems to be pretty common! I got a friend and we were talking about Union concrete truck drivers up in the northeast and we got onto the subject about how much we make per hour as the owner. If I'm breaking minimum wage I'd be surprised!! I've been reading/hearing about the government asking small business what they can do to help us to get it where we can start to hire folks, grow our business's. Like you said, Property taxes. My assessment has gone up twice this year! I went from around $3000 to almost $10,000 just this year. They also raised my home property tax. The paperwork they sent said if you have any questions call. So I called and asked why my property tax has gone up since I have done NO improvements since I moved in the place. He said, "It's due to inflation of the dollar, the dollar is worth more now than it was worth in 2007 when we did your last assessment." This guy was serious!? I laughed and said in a very serious voice, "uhm, sir, perhaps the county has not notice but we have this thing called a recession going on and from my understanding the dollar ain't worth a warm glass of p....." I caught him off guard with that and he stumbled around with the uhhh, well....it ummmmm, you see....and I cut him off and said, "basically your telling me there is nothing I can do about it, it's your decision and that's what you want to do and I just have to bend over and accept it?" He muttered again and ummm'd again and said yeah, there's nothing that can be done.
Anyhow, back to the shortage. Same reasons given for mechanic shortage. Younger kids don't want to lean over a 200 degree car on a 100 degree day in a shop changing a radiator for GM that pays .9 tenths of an hour when it takes longer when you figure paperwork, diag, and everything else that goes with it. Same thing with welding, kids don't want to dress up like nanuk of the north when it's 100 degrees outside so they can sweat and be hot all day long. Maybe the younger generation is just getting soft, would not surprise me though with the way the government holds everybodies hands now. Don't know if there is a real way to change views either. If the cost of living should somehow start to reverse and you can do more with less then it's the trade jobs that will take the brunt of the hit's. All trade wages will drop to a new "norm" while all the other jobs stay with inflated incomes. Just my thoughts on that whole thing. I have enjoyed everything I have done in the last 20 years, mechanic, welding, even building bicycles at the toy store but it all comes down to this. We need people, skilled people to build, fix things that have been built, maintain them and in the end us folks are the most unappreciated, looked down upon for the most part as unskilled, uneducated hillbillies, rednecks, trailer trash, whatever but it's the sad truth I don't feel most of the population understands what a skilled tradesman knows, the knowledge, skills in our heads and hands until their junk breaks and they have to call us!! I have seriously put bicycles together after Christmas or Christmas Eve customer would come in, have the bike in pieces and be saying, can you build this so we can have it under the tree? Sure, no problem, smile. Go back, 10-15 minutes later built bike and the whole time the only thing running through my mind is, how incapable can a person be that they cannot build a bicycle???.
No matter what you cannot "jazz" up the trade jobs like you can a doctor, lawyer, big money guy on Wall St., big airline pilot(that never seem to make enough money according to the Union) with the fancy cars, big houses, hot chicks(does that really happen?) and when you compare it to living in a hotel room using your 45 to shoot the insects that might be big enough to haul ya off while you sleep...if you can sleep worrying about some dirtbag stealing your gear off your rig at night then waking 10 to whatever hour day in the burning heat or raging cold it just don't seem like that cool of a job. Welding on live gas lines, rolling in the mud, climbing to crazy heights compared to a climate controlled building working 8-5, no weekends and definitely no sundays.
Wait a minute......why in the heck am I doing this for a living....Hahahaha!!!!
I think most of the TALK of a shortage began BEFORE the current econmic slow down.
I personally believe that when things stabilize (not that we will ever get back to where it was 5 years ago- that was such a false economy I don't know how it lasted as long as it did) we will again see a shortage of SKILLED labor in all trades.
BUT, I agree with Jon and Shawn. And quite frankly, we need people with skills even if it pays no more at the present than flipping burgers. And for myself, I prefer a challenge to my work. Something that shows my abilities and makes me use my mind for something besides deciding which movie I'm going to watch or which game I'm going to play when I get home after getting fat while absorbing grease/fats into my body while standing over a hot grill all day and sampling all the foods to make sure they taste okay.
Are there more risks to our work than working at the corner grocery or flipping burgers. Not really. Every job has it's risks. Cancers from a variety of sources. Health factors as to weight because of lack of exercise (I get a work out every day). Serious burns rather from grease or welding. Cuts from knives or steel. When it is your time, it is your time. I'd rather die doing something constructive and rewarding than feeding people to lazy to prepare their own meal when they get home and suppling them with food that is contributing to a world wide health problem.
Shawn, don't know if you remember any FAMILY posts of mine, we raised 5 kids. For many years, because of some self imposed recoup time from destroying parts of my body on a job, we lived on less than $10,000 per year during the late 80's and early 90's. But we lived on the family farm and raised chickens, cows, turkeys, 1/2 acre garden, fruit trees, etc. Didn't need to buy very many groceries. Gave me time to heal so I could work hard again.
I won't call it a conspiracy or jump on several of the other bandwagons, but this country is dumbing down. People don't want to learn when they can get paid to do nothing. It is also part of socialism: everyone makes the same money no matter what you know and what you do or how fast you can do it. No free enterprise. No incentive. No rewards. Everything taken care of by the gov't, but not at any level of competence that I want to live under. These things have failed in other countries but we are headed that direction full steam ahead while those countries are moving into capitalism.
Have a Great Day, Brent
"I think most of the TALK of a shortage began BEFORE the current econmic slow down. "
With all respect to the posters on this thread,
The shortage is not "talk"
Instances of age discrimination do not make the shortage B.S. or a lie... It just means there are fools in position of authority who are missing out on talent that could help them... My experience says the "discriminators" are in the minority... Go apply someplace else for God sake.
Alot of the discussion is tied to department of labor stats... The average age of a welder in the U.S. is over 55 years. Meditate on that a moment fellas and you can see that old welders are going to drop off the rolls whether they want to or not... Jobs will be open for welders without any growth in industry... This effect has been blunted somewhat by both older welders hanging on a few years longer because of the stock market disaster and it's effect on retirement; and in addition there is the business practice of trying to save by allowing some attrition and not quickly backfilling positions created by retirements. Neither of these have lasted.. Thousands of positions remain unfilled... FACT.. Not BS or lie
Expecting uniformly high wages for welding jobs in manufacturing (alot of talk about Catapillar) is just stupid.... Management *usually* has no issue with paying good wages for skill... Its the semi-skilled production posts that are going to HAVE TO STAY LOW if we want to keep manufacturing in the U.S. If you want to be in manufacturing and make great salary you better be very very good or be willing to move to a place that respects your skills. Has anybody actually operated an Electron Beam unit in manufacturing production? I can tell you it takes no more skill than operation a multi axis welding robot that has been fully programed.. so don't snivel about $15 an hour to monitor an EB. The person programming that EB is making coin.. don't you worry.
Is there some age discrimination out there? of course.... I'm still very optimtic about anybody entering the trades.
Business and manufacturing have always gone through cycles of appreciating age and skill vs cycles of trying to get in young fresh talent.... If CAT won't hire old welders than quit sniveling and go to where the work is.. Every friggin Shipyard in the U.S. is building.. The entire west shore of Lake Michigan is desperate for skilled welders and there is NO AGE Discrimination happening there. Dow Chemical in Tenn is importing welders from Michigan because nobody in TENN can pass the pipe tests... They told me they would hire 200 welders tomorrow if they could find anybody to pass the test.
Just looking at the last decade... The welders I've trained and sent out into the workforce (in the rust belt) are surviving something like this... The hardest workers are making wages high enought to carry a mortguage in our region about 18 months after graduation, being put into decision making roles whether they are 21 years old or 51 years old. The show up every day on time plodders are keeping there jobs and suffering fewer layoffs than the lazy ones... The lazy ones are suffering the same fate lazy ones always do. My students who have decided to continue education past what I can give are thriving at Ferris State and have multiple high dollar offers to sort through, beginning about 6 months before they graduate..
1. If you are willing to expand your talents beyond what you did well when you first started in the trades.
2. If you are willing to go where the work is
3. If manufacturing is where you want to go; Be bloody ready to work your way to a high salary.. Even if you are experienced. You will NOT be hired at the top pay rate.
4. Remember that people need to learn what is valued and make themselves valuable... Being good at one thing is not going to cut it most of the time.
Lawrence,
I would like to point out a couple of things to clarify my position which you quoted.
My emphasis on the OP as to the 'TALK' was to stress that it is just that 'Talk'. And, I believe the facts bare out that it did indeed start before the current economic slow down.
From there my point was that even if one were to concede that there appears currently to be no shortage but even a surplus of welders, that will change as the economy stabilizes.
And I really appreciate your inclusion of the stats about the numbers of senior welders, as well as seniors in all trades, who will not be around for long to pass on their experience and skills due to health and/or retirement. That makes the numbers look even more bleak and if it is not prepared for now while we have a slower economy then we will indeed have a problem that will be very difficult to deal with when we need the labor and it is 3 to 4 years away from even having the ability to supply low skilled welders.
As you also pointed out, electron beam, and many other processes, does not require ALOT of skill and/or experience. And we have many 'Masters' of welding who have not had good teachers either in the workplace or school but think they are God's gift to the profession.
I did not want to be super controversial in my previous statements but to be blunt, I think a good number (certainly not all) of those currently in the welding trades who complain about their wages are making exactly what they deserve. They are not trained, educated, certified, or very skilled. The applicants that come through my shop certainly support that statement. Take special note of my previous comment that the statement does not include ALL. If these young people wanting to get into welding really want to PROVE themselves worthy of higher wages, let them take these lower paying jobs and then show management what they are capable of. And, this can apply to some of the older welders as well. If you go in and take these jobs and then show management that you are indeed skilled, experienced, and knowledgeable about welding and can produce more than the young welders because you absolutely work smarter not harder then you may be surprised what it will generate. And yes, that is the voice of experience. I have taken jobs that they said only paid a certain wage scale. But they soon decided that was not neccessarily the case if they wanted quality as well as the volume that I produced. They actually changed the title of the position they thought they had hired me for to change the wage classes available to me. And I had 20 years of experience when I went to that job. And had worked there on two previous occassions.
I had chosen to focus more on the value of the dollar and that almost no industry is keeping up with the increases we have seen in household operating expenses. I don't think it is too difficult to see that inflation has run away from our earning ability as it stands right now. Easy credit, lazy lifestyles, efforts to stem a recession by making it easy to get what you want (instead of what you need), mandatory expenses that put a burden on young families to put both spouses to work at low paying jobs instead of finishing an education to get one good paying job in a few years, taxes, insurances etc have all multiplied this negative effect on worthwhile wages.
Your points about semi-skilled wages needing to remain low to keep manufacturing competitive are well made. THOSE are the jobs that many will find themselves in if they don't make the effort to improve their value in the workforce. I'm not sure they need to be as low as they are. Mainly because even those jobs could benefit from improving the knowledge, skills, and moral of their employees. And that would increase productivity thus making them even more competitive because they would be producing higher quality products for less money even though they were paying more per hour to get it.
I realize your post was not directed totally at me. I just felt the need to make my position a little more clear since you quoted me to start your post.
Have a Great Day, Brent
I guess I did quote you in bold... I apologize... The facts do bear that the "shortage" was predicted by the department of labor long before the slow down.. Long before 9/11 too.
And I agree that lots of places need better wages, even in manufacturing.. Not everybody is going to be a golden arm. Making the welds is honorable from shuttles to ****ters.
I won't concede that the shortage is a lie or a mirage... It's there, It's just also blended with some crappy business practices by some major players.
Many senior welders are already gone... And it's being felt.. I know this by the problems comming across my desk every day.... Things that could be solved by anybody with even a little process knowledge are becoming tangles that kill production... Management just hasn't smelled the coffee... They will need more focus groups and consultants to tell them that water is wet and the sun is hot.
"They will need more focus groups and consultants to tell them that water is wet and the sun is hot."
LMAO!! So true Lawrence, sooooooo true!!!
I've worked at a couple of place like this and those stupid formans and supervisors never did get it but they will in time or the quality will get worse and they won't get contrcts
By Tommyjoking 
Date 10-23-2011 23:03
Edited 10-27-2011 01:44
I agree with a lot that has been said but some of it is just whining at a bad situation...keep in mind I am a "victim" of it as well...or maybe a victim of my own short sightedness.
LAW I have been waiting for that one "the semi skilled jobs that will have to stay low".
Example: Aerospace crashed along with a lot of other things. Interesting enough I have a friend who took a position with CAT that I turned down repeatedly. I just could not work myself up over $14 hour to push big wire all day everyday...call it pride or not being hungry enough..your choice. Well my friend moved to the front of the pack for good reason. They paid for his CWI and basically he is a mfic on the production floor, all the hours he can stand with CAT bennies. He still has not broke $20 an hour. This is a fella that has literally welded on the Space Shuttle (no kidding), is a top 5% tig welder, highly experienced in electron beam as an operator and setup man, a really talented fabricator (built 5-6 figure custom choppers for 5 years) and just a great personality overall. Good for him, bad for him is his wealth of talent had no opportunities in this economy for him to apply it.....so he did what he needed to, to keep money rolling in his household.
I have been blessed with the fact past times have taught me and my family how to live low. Hard to do with a fat mortgage (where is my freaking bailout!?!?) but by the Grace of God we are managing. I have turned some decent offers down recently that 5 years ago I would have took in a heartbeat and I am worse off financially today then back then. WHY? because potentially I can make more in three months working for myself then I could make in a year with the best job I EVER had. Working for my self I have the opportunity to apply ALL my skills and experience and give it value that the average company just cannot practically make use of except in a management role. So here I go doing my own thing and so far so good.
I am not the greatest welder/fitter/fabricator/machinist in the world or even a tenth of the world....but I know how to get things done in a wide variety of applications. That is worth something right? In the last two years I have been in negotiations with more then a few world class companies.....it all comes down to about the same thing....we have to create an all new position to hire you and pay you accordingly. We want to hire you but, we have to change our system to make it fair to you and to us. I do not fit into the standard role most production type facilities/companies are set up for...they recognize it and so do I. I do not have the college background most companies require for a management role where I can apply real world knowledge...so I just do not fit in. Square block, round hole...hammer not big enough. I think that is about the same case for a TON of guys out there. Too old to start over...too good to give it away. Please understand I am not being conceded here...there are gobs of guys way far and away better then me in the same boat. The only way you can apply your stuff is to move into a different field of welding and more likely location to get what it is worth.
From what I have seen working around some local fab shops to help out or what have you, there is a serious shortage on skill that are employed. Granted if they stick with it these kids will season themselves out just by trial and error. I just see that most of these folks would rather throw bodies at the problems then get off their wallet and hire someone who could take care of whatever comes along. Everybody is looking at their bottom line and trying to tighten it dramatically...if you do not or cannot, you simply will not survive the competition.
BTW 90% of the problem revolves around regulation of the businesses, it is so constrictive and drives so much cost that is tying everyone's hands. I want to hire someone RIGHT NOW, but because of all the regulations I am looking at other ways of getting the job done because it costs way way way too much to hire someone and pay them fairly. Pretty ridiculous when that employee costs more in checks to govt agencies + insurance then they cost you in wages. It would actually be cheaper for me to hire them as a contractor and pay their general liability insurance to match mine, then to hire them as an employee. HOW f***D up is that!?! I am still learning the pitfalls and crap that goes with working for yourself...my hat is off to you guys running shops and such.
Tough subject, my $.02
Tommy
But you guys are 100% right on. If it is that terrible where you are, all you have to do is move or travel for a while...there are a lot of good paying jobs available across the country. I guess it comes down to what you are willing to do....but do something because sitting in your own misery solves nothing but stock you up on more of it.
Dow Chemical is hiring 200 welders? I checked the Dow web site and they have ZERO postings for welders. I guess the local trade school must have placed them all there.
You really don't like work do you?
It's a Dow plant being constructed.. Several Billion dollar facility.
Dow is not hiring maintenance staff yet..
The jobs are for the various contractors who build the plants... It has been working that way for the last oh 75 years in the construction industry.
I'm sure the internet can supply an infinate supply of excuses to fire your bitterness. Other people use it to find work.. Still others knock on doors until people get tired of hearing the rapping and put them to work.
