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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / NDT certs
- - By fitter (**) Date 11-08-2011 23:08
Is there such a thing as getting PT, MT, UT certs that are accepted nationwide, or do you have to certify with every company? Thanks for any info.
Parent - - By psnort (*) Date 11-08-2011 23:46
Sure. Go to the ASNT website www.asnt.org. Look up ACCP certification, available for Level II and Level III in several methods. Portable and widely accepted.
Parent - By fitter (**) Date 11-09-2011 00:03
Thank You
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-09-2011 02:05
It is true that there is a portable certification through the ASNT ACCP Scheme, but in reality, you still have to qualify per ASNT-SNT-TC-1A in every company you work for.
Parent - - By fitter (**) Date 11-09-2011 22:27
Hi Joe,So when a company runs a ad for a CWI with NDT experience ( PT,MT,UT) Having a portable cert. really does no good if I'm reading you right.I'm working as a welding inspector now, with a promise of NDT training but I'm not holding my breath.I know how to do PT, and was papered up for MT with another company but it seems like it would be easier for everyone concerned to have a portable cert program. Thanks for your imp Joe
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-09-2011 23:33 Edited 11-09-2011 23:37
Fitter

No, not necessarily so.  If the NDT company, or the company hiring you has a Written Practice and an operations manual that allows you to work for them directly without any testing( if you have an ACCP Certification,) you could be legitimately hired.  In SNT-TC-1A, there is a paragraph 1.4, that hasn't changed since the first edition of TC-1A( in 1966??).  It allows the company to change the provisions of the TC-1A to fit their operational needs.  (This is not permitted under CP-189)  So, it is legally possible, but not all the customers will accept this variation.  On the other hand, few people even know what TC-1A says, and even those that do, often combine items that belong in an operations manual into their Written Practice.  You often find that companies want a certified person, so they don't wind up getting a total dud from the get-go.   Other companies don't have a legitimate NDT operation, and are just looking for a credential.  The first time they get audited, that scheme will collapse, and even though you are just an employee, you could get personally burned.

As for pre-employment promises such as future training and certifications, that is the risk wherever you go.  Remember, that the company is also taking a risk with you!  .If the Company that is trying to hire you, is not intimately familiar with the vagaries of NDT Certification under TC-1A, CP-189, and ACCP, you are taking a big risk.  If they do not have a real Level 3, and a real training and certification program, your risk increases.  Even NDT testing labs & companies that you might THINK would have to be legitimate, are often fly-by-night crooks.  If they are involved in Nuclear work they are usually more legitimate.
Parent - By fitter (**) Date 11-10-2011 10:07
Thanks Joe
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-11-2011 03:54
Nuclear work is not a promise of being crook free. Even CP 189 is technically broken as well btw.
ACCP is not accepted by the NRC.

Now there seems to be trouble brewing for ASNT's LIII program after a letter was sent to the NRC questioning their grading process. The NRC response to it is that the individual company holds final responsibility for qualification and certification of their NDE personnel. I suspect some fireworks in the making for code week in Feb.

In all, there is a massive void out there for a central certification program. ANDE is not going to fly either.

I am not a big fan of government intrusion into the private sector, but lately there seems to be a lot of jokers out there claiming NDE experience but lacking 'significant' knowledge and skills. Even in the nuclear world, QC and NDE personnel are more and more operators rather than technicians. Ask a UT hand what a standing wave is and you get the doe in the headlights look 8 out of 10 times. These are 'phased array' 'shear' etc 'certified personnel'. If the machine doesn't tell them what it is, they are clueless.

MT II personnel who have never seen or heard of prods, head shots, and coil. I've seen some 'unlimited' certs through some various written practices that list the techs cert as unlimited, but put anything other than a yoke in their hand and you get the same doe in the headlight look. Ask them what a hysteresis curve is and 'your just being difficult now' attitude.

Then there are the visual guys. People that don't know the difference between a fiber-scope and a borescope but have unlimited certs running amok with unqualified remote equipment and no clue how to qualify or use it properly for that matter. Some of these being CWI's no less.

PT II technicians who's only experience is visible solvent removable or if they are really advanced water washable.

RT II hands who don't know what film latitude is, or subject contrast, and by all means, don't ask them to shoot with a plaque penny. Their head spins like they need and exorcist if you ask them to do so these days.

Worst yet, the proliferation of 'third parties'. Most of which couldn't tell the difference between a stick weld and a tig weld, post emulsified water washable vs solvent removable, or a thickness gauge form a phased array unit. Companies running around touting their 'third party' like it's a magic defense shield. Many are being hired on the basis of a BS resume because they bid it cheap and will simply shut down if they get sued.

The only written schemes for third parties are from the 10 IACS companies but even they are starting to struggle.

Get some of these jokers in your shop and you will know exactly what I am talking about. It was a bad day for me to read this post. I just witnessed this "metallurgist/guru of NDE" try to tell me a machining crack didn't exist. Never mind it bleed like a stuck pig and was visible to the eye. In the same day I reviewed a vendor UT report for a weld with visible IP (1" thick with 1/8" - 3/16" IP) as being clean. Film from the same vendor, for the same weld, "NRI". No recordable indications. 10" long IP B31.1 2007 edition not 'recordable'???????? I suppose that dark azzed line down the middle of the weld was a pencil centering mark or a fold in the graph.

I am just about to the point of signing up for a walmart door greeter.

The inspection world is in trouble ethically, morally, and structurally. Trainers cheating their students of a proper education, written practices that have about the same value as toilet paper, and people thinking they are Gods to the inspection/welding world who in my opinion are displaying divine intervention just in the fact they get to work without getting themselves killed from one stupid act or another.

Its been a bad day, maybe tomorrow will be better.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-11-2011 15:58
Gerald

Good Rant!  I hope you have a better day tomorrow!   I agree with most of what you said here.  As for the term "Limited Certification"  You are technically correct of course, but aren't all NDE Certifications in reality "Limited"????    As for instructors and the little that they teach, what do you really think can be done?  You can't expect everyone to get a PhD before they practice.  There is only so much you can teach and expect a student to absorb during a one or two week course.  Who can afford more?  How long will it take to pay back the fiscal investment of realistic training?  The current industry pay scale doesn't meet the educational / experience level desired by the customers. 

In my opinion, Central Certification programs, AWS or API or ASNT, are still a far cry better than "TYPICAL" SNT-TC-1A programs.  

Finally, even if everyone was trained to the max, and all outright fraud was eliminated, Probability of Detection statistics will still wind up in the 80 to 90 Percent category on the good days.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-12-2011 19:49
As for instructors and the little that they teach, what do you really think can be done?  I understand that there is only so much that can be passed on in a classroom setting. However, instructors/trainers are falling out into three distinct categories, with the third category being so distant and having so few people as to be insignificant.
The majority are falling into this structured book training. Often they have no clue what they are teaching, the only thing that matters is they are 'certified' to instruct/teach.
The second group is full of 'persons' who would be doing well to instruct someone how to operate the soft serve machine at the local Dairy Queen.
The third and last group are people with experience, and the ability to pass that experience on.

As for everyone getting a PhD, no one will ever know it all, the industry and subject matter is simply to large and dynamic for that to be possible.
There is a modicum of knowledge necessary to inspect. Basic welding knowledge, flaw types and characteristics, variations in the codes, tools of the trade and how to use them, welding symbols, etc. The people I described in the previous post don't even have that..

The current industry pay scale sucks. As the old saying goes, pay peanuts and you get a bunch of monkeys. As for the fiscal investment, the cwi package is up over 3k if I am not mistaken. Someone starting out has to make that back along with the time lost for the week. It is more the individual these days than a company.

I will agree that the central programs are above the tc1a, but the central programs are experiencing problems.

The state of training sucks, bottom line.
Parent - - By visualguy Date 11-12-2011 20:54
Interesting topic!! Back in the 80s when I first got into NDE my first day at the job I had a 5 question  true/false RT assistant test, told to be done in pencil of course at a nuke plant construction site. My first 5 year in the business were all field gamma, yoke and prod MT and solvent removable penetrant and never knew anything else existed. Later I took a job at a shop location and went to do the mag practical on a bench unit, the level 3 asked if I was going to do the ketos test ring before I started and he got the "deer look" He replied, "you aren't ready for this test are you?" I told him obviously not, I've never even seen a bench unit before.
30 yrs later, with the company I work for, I find a lot more "classroom" training, though that doesn't adequately prepare someone for actual field work. Companies are more than willing to send someone with just the "cert" out to do the job than to give someone some practical field experience. Hours are often falsified because it takes too much money to send a "helper" along when you are only getting paid for the tech. As far as ethics go, I find companies will preach ethics and integrity on paper but try to force you into positions of being less than ethical if you let them bully you. Customers are often willing to do what it takes to get the "acceptable" paperwork and often don't really care if it truly is acceptable. If you won't do the work, someone else will and probably cheaper too.  For example interpreting a radiograph done on a butt weld, welded with significant SMAW stringers. Though the code does say that weld preparation will be such that it will not interfere with interpretation. Coal fire plants are good for these. The contractor will have a fit if you try to make them grind down the stringers, and often will tell you  if you won't shoot it as is, someone else will. I say... let someone else do it!! Doesn't make many friends.
Solution? If employers will cheat, and customers will allow them to cheat and techs will cheat not much can be done, someone will cheat.
It's not, all about the paper.   just my two cents.
Mike
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-13-2011 22:34
Do you think we may have scared off Fitter?!?!?!
Parent - - By fitter (**) Date 11-14-2011 10:17
No I'm still here Joe. Just taking it all in
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-14-2011 14:52 Edited 11-14-2011 19:43
I must be in the minority in this discussion.

I was introduced to NDT by Chuck Hellier. I consider Chuck to be one of my many mentors and good friend. I obtained my NDT training in the mid to late 1980's. At the time he was the owner and President of Hellier located in Niantic, Connecticut. I attended his training courses for RT, UT, MT, PT, and VT.  Chuck maintained a staff of well qualified instructors that did a great job of teaching the subject matter and he maintained a lab area where the students could put the lessons learned into practice. The training has served me very well over the years. There are occasions when I still refer to the course notes that are always within arm’s reach.

The cost of attending quality training isn't inexpensive and it is only going to go so far in providing the student with information in the limited time allocated. For instance, if you follow the recommendations of SNT-TC-1A, the hours of classroom training for VT is very limited. There is no practical way of covering all the materials in sufficient depth in the time recommended by the guideline. Most companies and individuals looking for training look for the most inexpensive offering available. That means the individual is going to pay for the proper training and attend more hours of training than recommended by SNT-TC-1A or attend a course that trims the hours of classroom training to the minimum in an effort to save money. The same holds true in any of the other NDT techniques. 

It must be recognized that proper training in NDT is very similar to learning to weld. Classroom training is only one facet of the training. On-the-job experience working under the guidance of a qualified individual is an essential element of the learning process. This is one area that is often overlooked or ignored by employers and practitioners alike. There are variations of each NDT process that is dependent on the work being performed. Rarely is the application a text book scenario. Under ideal conditions there is a Level II or III involved that can provide the guidance needed to augment what the student learned in the classroom. 

In the case of welders, there are a few great welders, a lot of good welders, and too many poor welders. The same holds true with instructors. Hopefully the great instructors stay in the profession to pass their knowledge and wisdom on to the next generation. Even then, there will be some disgruntled students that didn’t care for the instructor, don’t care for the way the course was structured, or were simply in over their heads and not suited for the type of work.

As is the case in many aspects of life, you get what you pay for. The time and effort expended by the student is commensurate with the knowledge gained. In other words, if you try to get your education on the cheap, that’s what you’ll get. If you are attentive in class and do the reading and the homework, you will get the full benefit of the course.

Granted, a good instructor will be helpful and make the learning process easier. However, the hard work is done by the student that reads and studies the materials presented in class and pays attention when working in the field with a qualified Level II or Level III.

Ever since man learned to walk the face of the earth ethics has been a subject worthy of discussion and consideration. Just what are the ethical responsibilities of an Inspector? The subject of ethics should be included in every curriculum that deals with NDT. In short I say that if it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t right. Good ethics is simply doing the right thing.

Inspectors are held to a higher standard that other employees in the corporate structure. In many situations the decisions made by the inspector can affect the safety and well being of other people. The inspector’s decision, based on the information gathered in the course of performing NDT, must be based on standards developed by other professionals. That is, the acceptance of tested material is based on the acceptance criteria found in codes and standards that are applicable to the work being tested. When the requirements of the standard are not met, the work is identified as nonconforming. For most work, the inspector’s personal opinion should not factor into the acceptance or rejection of the work being tested.  

A good employer is structured to isolate the inspector from outside influences, but inspectors rarely work under ideal conditions. It is sad to say that pressure applied by the customer (or the employer) to accept substandard product can almost be expected. It is the inspector’s responsibility to resist such pressures or influences. Not everyone is well suited to be an inspector. While an individual may have the technical ability, they may not have the backbone or moral fiber required as an inspector to resist external influences. Good inspection decisions based on code requirements are usually the inspector’s best defense, but an inspector that continually finds himself backed into a corner by a client or an employer to accept substandard work may be left with few alternatives other than to seek employment elsewhere.

As is the case with every other profession, there are some great inspectors, some good inspectors, and some that should really look for a different line of work. That, unfortunately, is the nature of man.

A certification is no guarantee that the individual will do every job properly, in accordance with a drawing, or in accordance with a code. The certification is simply a piece of paper attesting to the fact that the individual possessing the certification has demonstrated some level of technical competence. There is no implied warrantee that a mistake will never be made or that the individual in possession of said certification is honorable, trustworthy, or brave. 

The certification is only as good as the organization issuing it. A weak organization that issues a certification for a show of good effort is not as good as one that is issued only when a minimum score is achieved on an examination that offers an unbiased assessment of the individual's mastery of the subject. That is where a central certification program for inspectors, such as those offered by AWS or ASNT, plays an important role in our respective industries.

Any system devised by man is going to be imperfect. While we strive for perfection, it is rarely achieved.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By fitter (**) Date 11-14-2011 23:31
Okay,now that's some good stuff. Hellier was a school that I looked into and seemed to have a pretty good rep.However ,it seems that it may be a waste of money if the certs I could get there are not accepted by inspection companies. I was a welder for 35 years and was constantly taking welding tests, so it is very similar in that every company that I worked for , I would have to take a welding qualification test.I just was not sure about how the inspection field worked in that regard being fairly new to it. I suppose it only makes sense to have to qualify with every company. I'm sure there are people who cut corners ,cheat and would be intimidated by time restrictions on jobs, but I never would do things I knew were wrong in my welding career and I have no intention of starting now.I had no idea there would be such a wide variety of answers to my original question but thank you all for all the helpful info.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-15-2011 01:23 Edited 11-15-2011 02:04
An organization such as Hellier offers NDT training to prepare an individual to take their certification examinations. The Level I and Level II examinations consists of three parts; the General Examination, the Specific Examination, and the Practical Examination. The General Examination is the portion of the examination that tests the candidate’s knowledge of the NDT method. It is general in scope and covers all aspects of the test method. The Specific Examination tests the candidates knowledge of the employer's NDT procedures, thus are very specific to the type of NDT tests performed by the employer. The Practical Examination tests the candidate's ability to follow the employer's procedure to evaluate several test pieces to find and identify various discontinuities and accept or reject them based on the acceptance criteria provided by the employer.

Organizations that offer training are not usually in a position to administer the actual certification examination unless they are authorized to do so by the candidate's employer and they are provided with the applicable NDT procedures. There are individuals and organizations that do offer those types of services. They are referred to as "Outside Agencies" that act on behalf of the employer. The Outside Agency often fills the roll of the "corporate" Level III when the employer doesn't have the necessary staff to fill that position. The Outside Agency develops the Written Practice, develops NDT procedures, administers examinations, provides training, and administers the NDT certification program when authorized to do so on behalf of the employer. In some respects, the services provided by the Outside Agency is similar to many of the services offered by Senior CWIs and to some extent by CWIs relative to welding.

The employer's written practice has to be written to recognize certifications offered through the ASNT's ACCP or AWS' QC1 program. Failure to do so means that a certification provided by a central certification schema cannot be recognized as meeting part of the examinations required to qualify as a Level II or Level III.

Whether obtaining the necessary training to qualify as a Level I, Level II, or Level III is a desirable goal is a decision only you can make. Whether it is right for you is determined by your goals and interest. In my case, branching out into NDT was a positive career move.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By L51174 (**) Date 11-16-2011 14:16
Off topic a little, but how is the cp-189 technically broken? I only ask because I am trying to move our shop towards this standard. I dont necessarily agree with the requirement that level IIIs be certified by the same agency that writes the standard, seems kind of self promoting. That would mean that the Europeans I work with occasionally, would not qualify as a level III under this standard, yet I know them to be more than capable.

Just wondered what you see in addition?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-17-2011 13:08
4.3.1 Level I and Level II. A candidate’s previous
training and experience may be accepted by the
employer if verified and documented in writing by the
previous employer(s) or, for training, by the previous
training agency(ies). Any claimed training and
experience which cannot be verified and documented
shall be considered invalid.


There is the basic problem. Thats all well and good as long as the previous employer will verify, Which most take to mean a call to verify what is in writing.
So lets say technician A started the business in 1985. The level III that gave him or her the training died in 2005, the company was sold in 2000 that he worked for, and all technician A has is a certification paper from the 80's to say he or she had training and or experience with the now defunct company, from a dead LIII.

How can the "verified and documented" part of that paragraph be satisfied? Technically it cannot. Does that mean all the experience, and training go away for Tech A?
In reality, no, but according to CP189, it can't be verified, and the cert paper is insufficient documentation. 15 years experience bites the dust as far as CP189 is concerned.
That is an unacceptable condition.
There are several other problems with it as well, one of which you've noted.

The fixation on an "ASNT LIII" is another problem. I know some LIII MT/PT/UT/VT types with only 4 years experience. I Call grade A bovine excrement on that.

CP189-
"Inquiry 03-1
Is it the intent of Appendix A that additional hours of experience
in other NDT methods are required in addition to the minimum
hours specified for each method prior to certification?
Response
The intent of Appendix A is to allow an individual to use experience
hours gained in other methods towards the experience requirements
of a specific method"

Now I understand the intent of that, but its being abused in a big way. I don't care if someone has 10 years of college with a PHD in astrophysics, experience is experience.
To my mind an ASNT LIII in 4 or more methods had better have a minimum of 10 years experience. The example I am quoting actually had it in under 4 years for MT, PT, UT, VT.
Studying a book doesn't make you a LIII. Yet this particular individual is not only that companies CP189 LIII, he is their instructor as per CP189 as well.
The rub of which is, 'technically' it's all above the board, even though its mostly based on BS.

That and other reasons are why I think CP189 sucks.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-17-2011 13:18
Gerald,
Would this satisfy this requirement?

I document my hours of VT, MT, UT, and PT daily and then my supervisor and I sign the bottom of this record every month.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-17-2011 16:22
As long as the supervisor is around to 'verify' the 'written documentation'.
Parent - - By L51174 (**) Date 11-17-2011 14:13
Yup, I agree. What's unfortunate is the dillution of the level III cert. I read the requirements as 4 years in the method beyond the requirement of level II, if they would just stick to that.... maybe they'd have something.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-17-2011 17:38 Edited 11-17-2011 17:44
Documented training and/or experience is generally acceptable by any agency.

Training is typically accompanied by a certificate of successful completion when there is some type of examination at the course conclusion. If there is no examination the certificates usual indicate "attendance" rather than "completion". I do not accept training certificates that do not indicate there was an examination at the conclusion of the course, i.e., attendance is not sufficient. If the certification is signed by the company that issued the certificate of successful completion and a score is issued, the requirements of CP-189 have been met.

As for work experience, once again, a document signed and dated by the previous employer is sufficient evidence that the hours worked are valid and can be used to fulfill the requirements of ASNT SNT-TC-1A or CP-189.

Whether the original signers are alive and well or long dead and buried is of little consequence. Just think about it, every agreement, contract, and treaty signed would only be valid if the individuals were still alive. Can you imagine the chaos there would be if every contract signed became invalid if one of the originators passed on to their just reward?

In general, a document that has been signed and dated is acceptable evidence that the document is correct and accurate.

There are very few guarantees in life.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / NDT certs

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