Union infection

Date 11-17-2011 04:57

For 7 years '84-'91 I worked at a Dana plant in Pa. that made car & truck frames. We were organised under USWA, and I was a tool & die maker. This is not a right to work state. The company had been there a long time, and the union was well established. We had good wages & benifits, as good as anybody in the area, union or non union. I feel that the union was of less benifit to the skilled trades overall than it was to the other workes, who were the majority by far. The production workers, less skilled or semi skilled, made good money, largely due to being on piecework. On most of the piecework jobs they did have to work hard physically, and earned thier money. This plant employed 3,000 in good times.

There were members to whoom the union was extremely important, as they could not have kept a job in an open shop, or would have had to improve both attitude and productivity. There were a good number of these. Fewer of these were on piecework.

The steel mill in town was not union, and they offered good wages & benifits too, but they had to, in order to keep enough people satisfied to keep the union out.

The steel mill is the only large industrial employer left in that town, and is still non union. That company has been through really rough times as well, but they survived.

*********************************************************************************************************************

At an employer before the frame plant, We did have a union vote. This was at a much smaller company, about 30 people, that had only been in busness a few years. You could talk to the owner any time You wanted to, if You thought You needed to. He was there all day every day.

One guy, about 55 years old was behind trying to get the union in, as He had not saved much for retirement, and hoped to get a pension initiated.

INTERESTING TWIST: He tried to make it look like someone else [a pot smoking kid who cared about nothing] was behind the union movement, a$$kissing the owner while esentially stabbing Him in the back.

When the vote was counted, the union only had only a handfull of votes, and Mine was not one of them. I had vocally opposed the union to anyone who would listen.

WHY NOT ? The A$$kissing backstabber was also My foreman, and was blocking My advancement to 1st class tool & diemaker [a whopping 50 cent increase], and had NOT invited Me to the meeting with the union organiser. This A$$kissing backstabber was to be the shop steward, if the union got in. HE gave ME every reason to vote against, and I didn't feel I needed a representative, and a union.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 11-17-2011 20:05

Ok I will bite. I have four direct experiences with them and I will be to the point as I can.

Worked with Ironworkers union in a right to work state. Overall the union kept jobs rolling in, and got the guys a fair wage and some benefits. They could have had better but they competed directly against private contractors and held their own. I did not think it was a bad deal they had.

Tried to work a split union fab shop. I did not stay two weeks. First day there I was told to I had a days production in the first 3 hours and "you got to slow down!! Cmon lets go get some coffee and tour the plant". Well after seeing the population of "workers" just stop and sit down smoke, read magazines etc. anytime they felt like it. I figured there was no future for this company and left. Apparently I was right, they closed operation about two years later.

UAW plant, large employer for area, again a right to work state. Union flag waviers on the floor were like rottweilers...I mean vehement in promoting the union. At the same time they had a slave shop like production line, whatever it took balls out fast as you could go if he drops stick another body in there now kinda thing. The average there was 10-12 bux an hour no matter skilled or not....bennies were not that good. They did get a fat production bonus every month for being on time...hence why they jumped thru thier butts to get it done and you would get your butt kicked in the parking lot if you stopped that line with a mistake. Horrible environment. This place is also out of business now.

I was a contracted Maintenance Planner for a large manufacturer. They had a stone age system and I was thier to bring it up to modern standards. My "office" I shared with all the production supervisors in one big room. The UAW steward would walk in there and I would see everyone's back stiffen up, talk would stop. He would walk in and be loud crude and obnoxious, say his peace and leave. He often threatened the supervisors or whoever and nobody did a thing. I was incredulous. I had a press on one side of the plant that kept going "down" about 1:00pm everyday. After some investigation I found out it was being sabotoged by the workers...they got thier qouta and did not want to run it anymore. Well I said why can't we fire them or move them off that job....all the way to the president of the facility. Leave it alone we can't do anything about it. WHAT???? I had to keep a maintenance guy stationed at that press after lunch ever day to keep it running for production. High School dropouts running stamping presses making 50k a YEAR with benefits.....and they acted like they were being screwed by the company and constantly threatening to strike. I saw the writing on the wall before I left. I had to lay out some plans and schedule some of our 300-400 ton presses to be pulled from the line and shipped to Mexico. Well they went on strike about a year after I left. They were still marching in circles in the parking lot about 3 months after almost all the machinery was in Mexico and running.

That is just my experience, no rant, no crap.

By RonG

Date 11-17-2011 22:31

Mike I am not taking sides on the question just wanting to point something out.

A union is made up of people and people come in all sizes, shapes and sorts and each has his/hers own agenda.
As I see it, back when unions were truly needed they served their purpose well.
But just as we working folks who worked hard to make life better for our kids (next generation) we, (a whole bunch of folks) stopped compelling them to work hard to earn an honest days pay for same.

Now they have children and they slacked up even a little more.

Now we have a large population that have no idea what it means to truly earn an honest days pay. But they know they want their share of it and the least they have to do to get it the better.

All I can say is look around at who you would be getting in to bed with before you get undressed let alone climb in.

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 11-18-2011 02:26

Once upon a time being in the Union meant something. Here is what it means today. It means the Union Bosses get rich. NO One Else ! It means you will do what they say and get what they give you. NOTHING MORE ! I dont know about the rest of you but I can speak for myself and make my own deals. I can negotiate my own wages and get my own benefits. Since I left the Union, my income and my lifestyle has increased tenfold ! If you want a True opinion about the Unions. Go ask the people in Detroit from the UAW. I am sure they will give you an earfull

By weldwade (***)

Date 11-18-2011 04:21

I have done a lot of work in powerplants in the 4 Corners area and in Tucson. This is my only Union experience. It made me sick to see all the standing around and bs'ing going on. It showed me the reason my power bills are through the roof! 10 guys to do a job that one guy could complete in half a day of hard work... made me sick. All I have witnessed was waste and horrible attitudes. I will pass thank you.

By mike wiebe 3 (*)

Date 11-19-2011 15:32

Thanks for the replies. It sounds like they got enough cards and now are having an arbitrator check signatures. Looks like it might be time to start looking for another job. Hate that I really have enjoyed working there.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-19-2011 19:49

I'll tell ya what Mike.

You may or may not want to leave because of the unionization of your company.

Even though I *hate* what my union stands for at the national level. The women and men that are the executive counsel at our local are wise and smart and willing to do what it takes to come to reasonable terms with mgmt.

Even though I *hate* some things about my union... I still look forward to going to work every day, I love my job. I can meet my needs financially every month/year.

I agree with Cactus that I can negotiate my own future better than a union could... But I'm also very happy and grateful for the place I find myself in right now.

If you continue to be happy.. Don't leave.

If you are unhappy.. Sell yourself to somebody who can make you happy.

There is of course no garuntee that we have a "right" to be happy with our work... But when you can be, it's a blessing that shouldn't be overlooked.

By Pickupman (***)

Date 11-20-2011 01:28

I've been sitting on the side and reading all the posts from those of you who are more experienced and well traveled and I finally thought I might as well jump in here too.

I live in a "right to work" state, which prides itself on drawing in new industry because of it's tax breaks and historicaly low wage scale, and have been supporting myself and family for 30 plus years here. In that time I have worked factory jobs, driven trucks locally and over the road, operated heavy equipment from scrapers to cranes to little mini trackhoes, built custom homes and done distribution gas pipeline work. What ever I could get the most money for at the time. Now I work for the local gas company. Again, what I can get the most money for now. All but two of those jobs were non-union. All but two of those jobs payed lousy and offered little for benefits, which at the wages payed were out of our reach. The jobs that payed the best and offered the best and most affordable benefits? Union jobs with union benefits. Do I like the politicing and backstabbing and attitude of the union toward management? No. Do I appreciate fair wages, good benefits for my family and a fairly secure job? Yes. I look at the union as a kind of job insurance and I stay out of their arguments with the boss. I feel that if a person goes to work on time, does an honest days work, is willing to do a extra without being asked, tells the truth, doesn't steal time or property and does the best quality work he can, he should get taken care of by an employer. Often times employers don't see it that way. So the union is just a little more security in an insecure world. Like Lawrence said, the people who run the local are sincere and do the best they can for us. That being said I don't put alot of trust in it either, use it to your advantage but don't be surprised when it fails you. Just my .02c which won't even buy you a piece of bubble gum anymore.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 11-21-2011 04:00

I would stay with them a little while and see how it goes. You can keep an eye out for another job the whole time.

By 99205

Date 11-19-2011 17:40 Edited 11-19-2011 17:43

The end of this article gives pointers on how an employer can avoid becoming unionized.

http://www.gneil.com/library/Pros-Cons-Labor-Unions/default.aspx/?lms=2570

By mike wiebe 3 (*)

Date 11-19-2011 19:37

I think our company has supplied all of those mentioned in the article. We have a decent 401k, good medical, decent profit sharing,etc. I think it has to do with what Ron mentioned above.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 11-20-2011 20:04 Edited 11-20-2011 20:14

My wife works for a company, Japanese company that does auto parts manufacturing to supply to, well, car builders. Anyhow, her place is non union in a heavily unionized area(GM) and we have good benefits. I say good benefits, we have medical, typical dental which for the most part is crap anyhow. I believe most folks don't know good benefits. To me, not having any insurance for the last 3 years just about anything is good in my minds eye. Seems like most of the Japanese companies, Nissan, Honda, Brigdeston, etc., are dead set against unions. I have yet to meet a person that works for any of the above companies that is gripping about his/her job or how bad the benefits are. They pay their employees a fair wage for what they do, give them excellent benefits.

I had a friend tell me a story once. He said they were on some powerhouse project. He said they had to move a welder, simply unplug the welder I believe then move the machine down 20 feet or something and plug it back in. Now, I may be wrong about the plug thing, perhaps they had to unwire/rewire, not 100% sure, have slept since then. Anyhow, he said it took 3-4 hours for the electrician to come up and unplug the machine. I actually think he said it was a simple plug, seems like I asked about that when I started to question how ridiculous this sounded. I told him I could not do that, I'd get p.o'd and likely do it myself. He said something about somebody reporting it to the bla bla guy and the bla bla guy would do something else. To pay two or three guys some $38/hour, each to stand around and wait? In my military training I'd be putting a size 10 up some electricians cornhole if he was not there in 20 minutes or less.

I've never been in a union. The guys I have met or actually know who have do not have very many nice things to say. My Uncle won't even talk about it. I figure there probably are not enough words in the Brittanica English Cursing dictionary to cover his thoughts on the subject. The majority of my union knowledge comes from dealing with the automotive end of it and having some sort of insider connections. My opinion on that is something that I believe I should keep to myself.

Sure you could drag a union into the big Japanese car manufacturers, or maybe into a place like where my wife works and perhaps that will get you some top of the line congressional benefits and pay scale but when the manufacturer decides that it is moving it's operation to Mexico then don't go peeing and whining about it.

By RonG

Date 11-22-2011 06:01

Every one needs to be aware that it is not as simple as it seems from ether side of the issue.

For instance the issue of "Unplugging a and plugging" in a welding machine. I am a supervisor and am held totally responsible for the safety of every one in my dept. My employer tells me that by law the company and my self can be held culpable (criminally negligent) for not doing every thing in my power to keep them safe. Yes I know this sounds way out there but I am merely repeating what I was told. So in that respect the union by demanding work be confined to appropriate craftsmen accepts their share of that burden. As a result there is a breaker on the buss bar at every 440 plug and each welder is trained to throw the breaker prior to handling the plugs. It may sound silly to some not to any of my Welders because that's how they wanted it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when unions bargain at a union shop the results are felt in all neighboring industry's of the same ilk least they loose their people to higher paying union shops.

From my perspective I am pro union but as a member of management know every line of the contract better than even the chief Stewart's and find it a very useful tool to achieve the results I need in tough situations.

By Superflux (****)

Date 11-22-2011 14:05

When it comes to a union shop, the prevailing mentality always seemed to be; "Don't be guilty of doing any more than the one who does the least!"
Attitude, work ethic and productivity mean nothing. Show up on time, don't violate the safety rules and you're set for life.
As an hourly employee, there is no chance for advancement other than where your seniority can take you.
A lot of people are cool with that.
Some folks want to progress in their career and profession.
There is room for both types in America. I love my country for allowing us the freedom to make these choices and be anything you want to be.
I'm proud to have been a mindless union robot running a sub-arc, to the maddening 25/8 of owning my own business.
Don't like Unions... don't work on a union job. Now days I get to work both. It's a beautiful thing.

By RonG

Date 11-22-2011 15:27

"there is no chance for advancement other than where your seniority can take you". Not so, we have promoted from with in on most positions in our company. Roughly 50 to 75% (of those left here) of the crew I worked with 25 years ago are in different areas management. I will be retiring soon and have been asked to find my replacement with in if possible (of course I am implacable) so I'll just have to do the best I can ;-).

I have seen shops where the union is really hurting the company though and I believe it is mainly because the management does not know how or refuses to work with the union. Both sides bow up on the other and makes for bad feelings all the way around.

Like I said "A union is only made up of people" and so is the company's management.

By Superflux (****)

Date 11-22-2011 19:22

RonG,
"the management does not know how or refuses to work with the union"

That statement sums up my limited experience in union shops.
I simply did not have the patience to sit out the 10-25 years to see if I could get a promotion .
Certainly hope I did not come off as union bashing, because I've proudly walked a picket line in the dead of winter in Colorado on a strike I did not vote for, but stood behind (actually in front, after they all ran when the gun came out!) my union brothers decision.
I've stated many times in this forum that union apprenticeships are an excellent way to further one's training in any craft.

By mike wiebe 3 (*)

Date 11-24-2011 00:10

Hey guys, I really want to say thanks for the replies. This post didn't end up being a pissin' match. Got some good honest answers, fortunately as of right now the arbitrator has counted the cards and also those who signed the non-union petition and has ruled that they don't have enough votes. The union is crying foul so next week they show up in our little town to interview some people and make the final say. Once again thanks.