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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Amps & Volts
- - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 11-23-2011 22:30
At work we have a couple of mig machines that have Volts & Wire speed IPM how would you go about finding what the Amps are. I have tried to do some research and haven't found nothing. If anyone knows a formula for this I would really appreciate if they would share it with me.

                                          M.G.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-23-2011 22:40
loaded question. Every machine runs different, You can use a calibrated shunt to find out while welding.  Contacting the manufacturer or looking in the technical manual it may have a conversion. Sometimes the relationship between WFS and amperage isn't fixed.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 11-24-2011 01:08 Edited 11-24-2011 01:17
The easiest way is to use an "amp clamp" and get a direct reading while welding.

Griff

P.S.

IPM divided by 1.6 (for .035) = amps (approximate).

Divide by 2 for .030.
Divide by 1 for .045

Griff
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-24-2011 04:36
If You plan to use an "amp clamp" be sure it measures DC amperage, as the ones commonly used by electricians do not.
Parent - By ozniek (***) Date 11-24-2011 11:34
Hi Milton

In the industry I operate in, we always just measure the V & A, so I did not know the conversion, but it was an interesting question, so I whipped out my AWS welding handbook for some info. (Great resource if you ever want to invest in some good litrature.) It looks like it is not a straight forward answer, and depends on a number of factors. (See the equation below.) They give "typical" graphs for different metals, but by looking at the equation they give, it also becomes obvious that it is not that simple, and will also be affected by wire stick-out and the like, which can vary from one application to the next. I will also attach the graphs they have in the AWS handbook.

Just another issue. Many wire feeders do not actually give a WFS, but a "random" number. (e.g. from 1 - 10, or whatever) Also, if they do give WFS, it may not necessarily be well calibrated, so your actual WFS could be quite different from your machine setting. There are adapters for the "arc monitoring machines" that measure WFS if this is important, or you could just let the wire run for a given time (e.g. 10 seconds) and then measure how much wire was fed by the feeder.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-24-2011 12:07
Milton,
There's a bunch of factors that effect the amperage (standoff distance being a main one). That's why you won't see a formula that fits all setups. 

Griff's formula is interesting.  I'll check to see if my welds fall within his approximation.

The best thing to do, is to run a few bead on plates, using your standard setup, and record the amps from the display on the power source.
Let me know if you would like me to help you create a formula specific to your setup.
Tyrone
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 11-24-2011 13:18
Just for the record, the formula I posted was direct from Miller's website. Also, it is not intended to be exact, just an approximationsto give one an idea of their set-up.

As you and a couple of others have said, there are several factors that affect the amperage.

We have a MM251 and MM251 at the shop. The set-up charts are very close but not identical. That alone would show the formulae to not be exact.

HTH
Griff
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-24-2011 12:10
Hahaha,
Niekie was quicker than me in typing a response.  Hopefully you can use the curves he attached.
Tyrone
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 11-24-2011 16:45 Edited 11-24-2011 16:48
The reason that I ask this question was is, I was told that the wire speed was also the amps which I called Bullsh$t. I thought that there was a way to figure it out by some kind of formula to get you close to the right amps but I knew the wire speed wasn't it .
Thanks for your help and I will so him this next Monday.
This is the Volts that shows on the miller 300 (24) the wire speed is (460 IPM) so the amps should be around (287.5) it also states that it could be +/- 10 . This welding machine doesn't have an amp meter on it.

           Thanks for everyone's help M.G.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-25-2011 03:05
Using the formulas Griff posted, with .045 steel wire, the amperage and the wire feed in IPM are about the same as the AWS chart in the 150-200 amps/IPM range, so with .045 steel wire, in this range, the rule of thumb You were told has some merrit.

Pretty narrow range for a rule of thumb to be usefull.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 11-25-2011 20:31
Dave we  where using .035 ER70S-6 wire if griff chart is right shouldn't the amps be 287.5.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-26-2011 05:17
Yes, by the formula Griff mentions but states is aproxamate.
The AWS chart showes a lower amperage, about 230?

Measurement is the only way You will know for sure.
As others stated, there are other things, stickout being a big one, that cause variation.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 11-26-2011 09:01
Hi Milton

This may just be a matter of mis-communication with the other person you are refering to. The other person may not necessarily have meant that the IPM = AMPS, but rather trying to communicate the principle that you set your amps by adjusting the WFS.

On a number of occassions I have disagreed with somebody, only to find afterwards that we were actually in total agreement, only we were perceiving the issue differently.

Just a thought?

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-27-2011 16:45 Edited 11-28-2011 05:22
Several people have already mentioned there is no direct relationship between wire feed and amperage other than the fact that they are proportional. That is, as the wire feed increases, so does the amperage for given filler metal alloy and diameter. Voltage also figures in, but because the arc is not constant state, it varies as the molten droplet transfers through the arc; it too is in a steady state of flux.

Ohm's law can be used to get a better understanding of direct current and the relationship between amperage, voltage, and resistance. Ohm's law is Amperage = voltage / resistance. Assuming for the discussion that voltage is constant for a given short time period, the relationship shows that amperage is reduced as resistance increases.

Resistance can be thought of the internal friction that inhibits the flow of electrons (current) through the electrical circuitry of the welding machine, but more importantly for this discussion, it is the distance between the end of the contact tip and the end of the electrode (starting point of the arc). The resistance through the arc is very low since the arc in essence is plasma which by nature is highly conductive, i.e., low resistance. As can be seen, as the length of the electrode beyond the contact tip is increased, the resistance increases and the amperage decreases assuming the voltage is unchanged (constant potential - same as - constant voltage). The resistance is proportional to the length of the electrode (electrode extension).

Melt-off rate can be assumed to be directly proportional to the amperage, thus if the amperage is doubled, the melt-off rate doubles in direct proportion. Thus if the resistance of the system is reduced by a factor of 2, the amperage doubles and the melt-off rate doubles. Unfortunately, we cannot neglect to consider the internal resistance of the machine, but assuming it is constant, we can ignore it for the discussion. After all, we are interested in the concept without all the details that complicate the theory.

Since most welders are AC, there are other considerations such as inductance and capacitance. Think of inductance as the equivalent of a shock absorber on the front-end of an automobile. Both inductance and the shock absorber dampen the rate of change. In the case of the automobile the shock absorber dampens the frequency and amplitude of the bounce of the car's ride. In a similar manner, inductance dampens the rate at which the welding machine is going to respond to changes in the circuit. Those changes include the resistance due to chances in the electrode extension as the welder moves the torch a little closer to the work piece or further away as the torch is moved along the joint and the welder breaths. Also changing is the resistance due to the transfer of metal droplets through the arc. With each change, there is a change in the resistance and a corresponding change in the welding current. If the rate of change is instantaneous, the welding machine becomes unstable and the arc becomes erratic. Hence the need for inductance to help stabilize the welding arc.

I said to assume the arc voltage is a constant, but that is an over simplification. Arc voltage will change. That change also influences the welding current as well as the melt-off rate. It all goes back to Ohm's law.

Melt-off rate is tied to current density. A certain current density is needed to heat the electrode to the melting point and to facilitate metal transfer. Since the electrode is round, the area is a square function, A = Pi x R x R where Pi is approximately 3.1416 and R is 1/2 the diameter of the electrode. The relationship between electrode diameter and the area is not a linear relationship, so doubling the diameter doesn't result in a doubling of the area. The following table shows the increase in cross sectional area as the electrode diameter increases.

0.035 inch dia.
0.045 inch dia. = 1.65 x increase in area
0.052 inch dia. = 2.29 x increase in area
0.0625 inch dia. = 3.19 x increase in area
0.125 inch dia.= 12.76 x increase in area

In order to maintain the same current density, thus the same melt-off rate, the increase in current would look something like the following:

If using 0.035 inch diameter electrode at 200 amps (spray mode w/ carbon steel), you would require:
             0.045 inch dia.                                          330 amps
             0.052 inch dia.                                          460 amps
             0.062 inch dia.                                          640 amps
             0.125 inch dia.                                          2250 amps

So, you can see that if the electrode diameter is held constant, voltage is held constant, and the electrode extension is held constant, the melt-off rate will double by doubling the welding current. However, if the electrode diameter is increased, the current has to increase rather dramatically to maintain the same current density, thus melt-off rate.

As most of us know, the welding system is very dynamic, so the electrode extension changes (especially if we are not aware of the importance of electrode extension which is similar to contact tip to work distance for our discussion), the resistance changes, the arc voltage changes, all of which provides us with some interesting happenings at the welding arc. Add in the influence of the inductance (some machines have variable inductance that can be set by the welder, some have dynamic inductance that changes as other variables change, and some machines have fixed inductance), and you really have some interesting affects. Last, but not least, we always have to consider the shielding gas and how it affects arc voltage, but as long as the gas mix is not changed, we can ignore it for the purpose of understanding the relationship of Ohm's Law when working with direct current.

I hope this helps.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 11-27-2011 17:20
Thanks AL.
                M.G.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Amps & Volts

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