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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Shop questions
- - By phaux (***) Date 12-04-2011 01:38
For what applications would one choose the use of an abrasive saw of a cold saw or vice versa, and why?

I've acquired a couple of each and am trying to figure out the best set up.

What is the purpose of a finger brake? I understand the purpose of a brake, but why the removable fingers in different lengths?
Parent - - By leterburn (**) Date 12-04-2011 01:41
combination of different lengths.... say you were going to bend flanges all the way around to make a toolbox lid?? If you had different lengths of "fingers" you can make that box different size (length x width)
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-04-2011 02:10
Different lengths?  Do you mean different widths?

The different widths are so you can make combination's to be able to break out a box or lid on all four sides.  That is hard to do with a regular brake press with a set length on the dies.  Most people round here call it a box or a pan brake. Very handy for sheet metal work.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 12-04-2011 02:15
For a Saw, I would say it is HANDS DOWN a Steel Max 14" steel Blade saw.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 12-04-2011 02:40 Edited 12-04-2011 05:54
Cold saw or abrasive saw?  Each one has pros and cons.  Cold saw (liquid coolant runs onto the circular blade when cutting) is great for stainless steel, mild steel or precision cutting without the need for a lot of prepping the cut edge.  The down side of that cold saw is the cost of the blades.  To much pressure on the cutting handle and you break the blade.  The big round abrasive saw saw is great for fast cutting most metals.  Precision isn't as good as a cold saw but the cutting wheels are not that expensive but it does require more time to prep the cut edges.  Having one of each in a shop should cover most of your cutting issues.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-04-2011 03:46
I agree with 99205 on most points. I would NOT USE a cold saw on hard [heat reated too hard to machine] material, this is the place for an abrasive saw. With the proper abrasives, You can cut fully hardened steels, and alloys that will shorten the cutting life between sharpenings on cold saw blades.

There is a world of difference betwen a light portable abrasive saw, and a permanant mounted shop abrasive saw, which do You have?

The Steel Max is not really a cold saw, and not an abrasive saw either, but may well be the best of it's type [carbide tooth dry cut saw].
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 12-04-2011 05:51
Hmm, don't know why I put "hard" in there. I meant Mild.  Changed it.
Parent - By phaux (***) Date 12-04-2011 17:48
For mobile work I have a Milwaukee 14" dry cut saw, great machine.

For shop I've got a Kalamazoo 5hp abrasive saw and a superbrown cold cut saw. Though I've recently stumbled upon a Brobo cold cut saw that I think I can get for $250 which I'm debating on. From the research I've done they're supposed to be a top notch brand.
Parent - - By yorkiepap (***) Date 12-04-2011 15:18 Edited 12-04-2011 15:35
Hey phaux,
You need to understand the different terminology as to saw cutting definition.

An abrasive saw uses an abrasive disc that deteriorates as it is cutting....the disc could be considered as a consummable. The disadvantages are that it produces a heavy level of abrasive dust that needs to be vented either by overhead exhaust fan or dust collector that can be as simple as a small hood with a shop vac hose(3") attached. It can be quite a mess without some method of collecting the dust. Also, the cut will not be as nearly as accurate as a steel blade because of flexing of the disc. Many complain about not getting good mitres with an abrasive saw. The only positive attribute is cost....they're much cheaper.

A cold saw is generally a much more powerful saw that is used in a heavy cutting fab shop. They are a steel blade either HSS or carbide tipped & generally run at a very low rpm that gives it the ability to do some serious cutting. These saws are geared as low as 54rpm & most operate with a coolant. Blades are also quite expensive. They are much cleaner as far as residual cutting chips getting spread out from the work station.

The 3rd....my favorite & what I use daily is a 14" dry-cut saw(Porter-Cable). It is a lower rpm(1300rpm) using a C7/72T tungsten-tipped blade that cuts straight, great mitres, up to 4" dia(rd or sq tube) material with ease, cut 3" solid without issue, & needs no coolant to maintain blade life. I get between 1200-1600 cuts on steel(NO SS!!!) before sharpening is needed & twice that with aluminum/brass/copper. The blades are economically priced at $40(14" Freud Diablo Metal Demon) & I have an inexpensive blade sharpener(HF) that re-sharpens the tung. tips easily.

Lastly, many use a 10" hand saw w/tung tips that will also work.....you must be very aware of using these & apply serious safety rules. They can be quite effective on field jobs having a smaller footprint & ease of use. They are limited to the thickness of material & cutting odd shaped material(sq/rect/angle) although can cut sheetmetal very effectively. I also use a 10" table saw w/C5/60T tung-tip blade for all the aluminum sheet I cut. You must use a blade rated for the much higher rpm of a table saw. AGAIN.......BE SAFE!!!!!!!

Attached are pics of my setups & applications I do & website where I get all my blades. Hope this will give you some mental fodder to contemplate.

Denny

Blade distributer: http://cripedistributingstore.com/index.php/saw-blades/freud-diablo-steel-demon-14-x-72t-ferrous-metal-blade-ro.html

Some pics:
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Parent - By phaux (***) Date 12-04-2011 17:52
Like the little jig in the first few pick for cutting tubing at an angle. Is that simply for cutting faster so the blade doesn't bog down on the tops and bottoms?

What am I looking at in the last pic?
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 12-11-2011 04:14
phaux, you the guy I owed some pipe to? Just got out of prison. A bad deal for everyone, I'm afraid.....:grin: Give me a shout if you are the guy. It's been killing me having loose ends. Thanks.
Parent - - By phaux (***) Date 12-11-2011 11:35
I am indeed. Would love to get that pipe. Thought you fell off the face of the Earth :P
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 12-20-2011 00:12
alrighty mister. We can keep in touch right here. I just got rigged out and I'm hunting down work. Still have pipe in Wyoming, but it will be a while till I can afford to move it. As you know I lost near everything in the divorce and all that ensued. I'm glad I ran into you again, and look forward to getting square with you! Thanks!!
- - By weldwade (***) Date 12-04-2011 05:56
Personally I prefer a band saw over a cold saw. A good one can do much more than a cold saw for me. You still need an abrasive saw for the things that Dave mentioned and they are mobile as well. A high quality box and pan brake is the way to go in my opinion. I have built radius bars as well as custom width and shape fingers for mine. If I need something done on a press brake or shear I hire it out bcause they are very expensive pieces of machinery. A small press brake attachment for a hydraulic press can be very useful. They are cheap and easy to make.
Parent - - By Sberry (***) Date 12-04-2011 13:30
My work is so general I like a simple chop saw.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-05-2011 04:04
That is a nice work station. The motor air intake duct is a great idea.
Parent - - By phaux (***) Date 12-04-2011 17:46
Ya, I've been looking at putting together a hydraulic press with a brake attachment for smaller thicker stuff. Found a Di-Acro 24" finger brake for $100 I think I'm going to pick up. This guy built his own CNC brake, pretty good write up:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=840111

More money, time, and talent than I have, very impressive.
Parent - By weldwade (***) Date 12-04-2011 19:00
Very impressive press brake build. That young man has many talents! Welding is definitely not his strong suit. The welds on the cylinders made my eyes hurt.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-05-2011 04:11
Allan Evald posted a really neat & simple "V" die bender using a hydraulic jack in the "Tricks of the Trade" section, it is back a few years.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-05-2011 04:30 Edited 12-05-2011 04:35
Hello phaux, noticed that Dave mentioned one of my ancient posts in this thread, here are a couple of photos of a portable bending system that I put together a number of years ago. Utilizes a 15 ton porta-power head and due to the design is able to bend very tight multiple bends. Bottom die is 4140 tool steel and the top die is A2 tool steel, the side bars and shear lugs are cold-rolled key stock. I built this when I was doing a lot of roof access ladders, the design lends itself to bending the offsets for these ladders without some of the safety issues of using conventional press brakes for this purpose. You could certainly come up with versions/modifications of this design to possibly work for what you are trying to accomplish. I have always been curious about what it takes to form metal and whenever I get the chance I experiment on various systems and approaches for accomplishing metal bending challenges. Best regards, Allan
- - By chickweldor (*) Date 12-04-2011 13:47
I read that you should rotate pipe while you are cutting with an abrasive blade,didn't say anything about that in the owners manuel so should you or not?
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-04-2011 14:07
I'm not sure why you would need to chickweldor, other than, I know several of my employees have had a hard time understanding how to get the amount of pressure for feeding correct to keep from glazing the blade as it goes through.  Pipe is thick enough and has enough surface area at the top you have to get the pressure right to keep from getting the pipe and the blade too hot.  Then, as it drops down you need to slow down a little so you don't crowd it too much and burn up the motor from too much resistance.

If you leave a piece of anything loose in a chop saw you stand a risk of flipping parts, twisting the blade from parts moving, parts spinning out of your hand, and other hazardous situations.  I wouldn't recommend it.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 12-04-2011 15:12
chick weldor,
For (large solid stock or) sch 80 1-1/2" and 2" pipe I would cut down until reaching the bottom of the pipe and then Shut it down, rotate 90 degrees or so, then reclamp securely and finish the cut. This would also let you know how close to square you are cutting and if adjustment is needed. Never use it without the stock secured in a clamp. Also make sure the end(s) is (are) properly supported if dealing with long pieces.
Hand holding material in a saw is not a good idea. Sometimes the vises are not very good at holding smooth round stock and can let it spin. Not all saws and the vises are created equally.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-05-2011 04:17
The method Superflux mentioned will make burr removal easier, as the cut through the bottom will part the pipe with the radiused edge of the blade leaving a "fin" that will need to be removed later. This "fin" will cut You badly if You are not carefull in handling the parts. If the cut end will be prepped with a bevel or coped immediatly, there is less or no benifit of the true cut.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-05-2011 15:58
I've done this type of stuff for four years now and still have not found a need to justify spending the money for a chop or cold saw. I must be doing something wrong! :lol:

I do like Alan's press though! A friend of mine built one in about 30 minutes and used a Harbor Freight 20 ton air bottle jack. That thing worked awesome!
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-06-2011 03:29
What are You cutting material with?
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-06-2011 12:36
Out on jobs a porta band in the shop a band saw. Not as fast as a chop saw I guess but less mess and I can put it in the machine, set the speed and walk away til it cuts thru.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-07-2011 02:07
I have been using a Taiwanese 4x6 band saw for a lot of My shop cutting since '83. With a good BiMetal blade like a Lenox DiemasterII 10-14 variable pitch it cuts tube & angle fast enough that there is little point in walking away. I run it on 220 SFPM on mild steel.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-07-2011 03:10
I had a small 4.5 inch I bought from TSC 5 years ago, finally killed it this summer and bought one from Northern Tool, 7 or 8 inch capacity, 3/4 variable blade, love it! Ordered 2 more blades from a place in Birmingham that my steel guy uses. I multi task, it cuts and I lay out other things or tack, roll, whatever.
- - By chickweldor (*) Date 12-05-2011 21:25
ahh yeah my chop saw went up in smoke RIPyoungdewalt!! wondered if it was the pipe that killed it goin' slow with it too,don't like 'em that much seven inch grinder seems cooler don't know if I can handle one yet,nine inch brrr! nightmare material!!
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-06-2011 03:31
Give those 7" & 9" grinders a lot of respect when You start using them. They have enough power to get away from ANYBODY if they snag or bind in a corner.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-07-2011 03:12
Need to let you use my 7" Dewalt, that worthless turd would bog down in a pile of sand!
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 12-07-2011 03:14
:yell:
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-07-2011 03:39 Edited 12-07-2011 03:44
I totally agree....Shawns 7" is a turd, my 10 year old could lock it up without making me nervous.  That little bitty metabo 7" ("really") he has is a HOSS...spectacular little grinder.

I know what a real 7-9" grinder is, it is called a B&D wildcat, the true name for it is mankiller.  It will either break you down with its weight, or sever a major artery if your stupid.   I love the things.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-07-2011 03:49
Shawn a chop saw is handier then you might think....spindles....I think on handrail stuff I could not live without one.   If I had a sweet cold saw...I probably would not use the chop saw at all.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-07-2011 04:45
I thought about one for this large rail job I've been working on. I ended up bundle cutting about 6-8 twenty foot sticks of 1/2" solid square. Would tape with cheap black tape and measure them out and tape. Could cut out 50 balusters in no time like that.

Saw a guy down in Hotlanta that had a cold saw, it was awesome, cut quick and clean. On my list but think I'll wait til I get the shop built then I'll dedicate a corner for it to sit and wait to be used!

On the grinder note, my Milwaukee died yet again. Got to looking at a 6" Fein but thought to myself, why go to a Fein when I know my metabo is awesome. Thinking I might get a 6" metabo, but still would not mind giving a Fein a whirl!
Parent - By reitenger (*) Date 12-07-2011 09:43
I have a fein, and it is great.  I have a couple of dewalt 4.5's and have been more than happy with them as well.  Our shop uses mostly Bosch's, but they hurt my hand if I spend a night using them on railing or something else with a lot of clean up.  The sheet metal shop next door bought a few new Dewalt 7" grinders and I picked up all of their old 7" makitas for $20 each.  They are all of the age that the cases are metal.  Personally I think they downgraded, but I can't complain.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Shop questions

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