Inspectors vs. Production Workers

Date 02-27-2004 14:57

How many total employees do you have and how many shifts work? At one of my former employers we had approximately 90 shop employees and 3 cwi's to cover 3 shifts. We constantly asked for more help but to no avail. Their reasoning is when things get slow you have more people standing around since inspectors were salaried non-exempt with overtime. But when things got crazy busy the inspectors like me were buried by having to get things done before the next shift came in. We built primarily fan rotors for the power generation industry, things that way anywhere from 60 to 80 thousand pounds when completed. We would have to do a complete MPI of the units which could take anywhere from 4 to 6 or 7 hours each depending on the complexity and they would want you to get 2 of them done in a shift. I understand where your situation but to many in management QC is a necessary evil and don't want any more than they have to have.

Just my thoughts,

Brian J. Maas

By jfwi

Date 02-27-2004 17:34

I may be a wimp but 30 separate welders seem like a lot. In the shops that I have worked in, purely as an consulting inspector, when the number of welders get above 10 to 15 it is hard to keep track of who is doing what and if I am going to do the job that is required by the code I need to know who is doing what. I have probably try to hard by I take pride in the job I do. I do inspection on primarily CJP welds that take more time to inspect than the structural fillet inspection, so that would make a different on how many welders on a project.

I have never done shift work like both of you have done so I can't say I know what you are talking about. But I do know what type of inspection service that I like to give to the customer and too many welders the service that I can give will be diminished.

Well that is my 2 cents worth, I agree you should have at least temporary help when things are busy.

Jerry

By RonG

Date 02-27-2004 17:54

Sometimes quality is in the eye of the beholder but it dosen't shine as bright as the dollar signs.

Not knowing what your product is I still think thats some what lop sided depending on how much and what type of inspection is required.

I would take some notes and make a presentation showing what is required and time to perform each operation. Gets some facts and numbers to show them.

Most of the time getting what you need in an industrial inviroment is a matter of making them see what you need them to see.

If they have never done the work they have to depend on imput from those who do do it and then weigh those needs with every one else's and so it comes down to who does the best job of convincing them their needs are greater.

By bmaas1

Date 02-27-2004 20:14

Let me expand on my previous post.
These are not all just welders. You have assembly, fabricators, fitup, incoming material, warehouse inspection, shipping inspection, etc. It can get pretty hectic.

Brian J. Maas

By HoutxInspect Date 08-01-2004 10:46

Stop a minute, take a breath, and focus now.

Reasonably speaking, one person can only do so much in an aloted amount of time.

As far as where they get their figures from, since they made the comment, make them prove it by telling you where it's from. If they say from another plant, that means nothing except they don't support their quality program. It also means you've got some hard choices to make, like do you want to work there that bad.

You need to be working at a comfortable pace and anything faster than that is asking for mistakes that is just going to get you and your company into problems to numerour to mention here.

I would just tell the person in charge that you don't have time to do all the research needed for a presentation and your job too, and that you need help if they consider keeping up with production important.

If production wants to play hard ball, then there's no team spirit. I've been in a couple of situations like that and it's a no win proposition for anyone involved.

Meanwhile, you might start looking for another job. If management won't support and take quality seriously, you don't need to be there.

By pfortin (*)

Date 02-27-2004 21:57

The number of Qc people you need will depend on several factors regardless of operation or product:
1. How often do you inspect? 100%? 1 part per 1000? There's a lot of different ways to assign this and as many reasons for each choice.
2. How long does it take to inspect?
3. How frequently do defects occur? You need to know your common defects and root causes to answer this effectively.
4. How experienced with the product are your inspectors?

If you have someone fairly competent with statistics, you can figure out what your ideal inspection level needs to be, and figure out your personell needs from there. Its a less exact science if you do a lot of custom work, but you still need to ask yourself those questions.

Battling upper management on QC can be a brat, good luck,
Pete

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-01-2004 00:50

Hello Bob,
You and I are in the same boat. We are looking after about the same number of employees and the same type of work(structural fabrication). I too have been hollering for help. My problem is I am spending all my time trying to look after the Safety portion of my job. Safety Training is eating up all of my inspection time. I have two inspectors that are helping me, one on day light and another for night shift. These are primarly fit-up inspectors and do not hold a CWI cert. Weld inspection is left entirely upon my shoulders, along with all of the UT'ing. I really don't like being spread so thin, as you have indicated is happening at your plant. I hope you are able to convince someone of your need for help. Tomorrow (3/1/04), I'll be envolved with fork lift training, but you can call me if you need to talk, I'm right across town(beside Englander stove). We are in the Yellow book.
(Tim Wingfield w/ F&R has spoke of you)
Look forward to talking with you,
John Wright (LSS)

By thcqci

Date 03-01-2004 12:52

Our shop is smaller. Probably 25 to 30 head total now. 1 shift now although we used to run 2. Recently downsized due to slow work (1st lay off in 15 years). One laid off was my QC inspector since there are several others available to perform dimensional inspections, etc. We are not large enough to have a fully independant QC Dept so we have to get creative. As I have said in other threads, I am the first dedicated QA/QC person this shop has ever had in their 25 year history. As said above, when things get slower, dedicated QC personnel, who may not be as adept at production work, end up standing around and are expensive overhead. Our path to QC is to have me assigned to mainly QA duties with some QC duties thrown in. I am only CWI on floor although production superintendant is one also. I assure incoming inspections are performed by recieving foreman (or his rep), leadmen perform dimensional and most welding inspections, paint foreman primarily responsible for paint dept operations and inspections. I perform random mini-audits of paperwork and performance through all depts daily. If someone is slipping, I up the time spent in that dept until back on track. We do an excellent job at the incoming thru fitting operations, so I spend most of my time overseeing the welding and painting inspections. I perform all welding inspections when specs say CWI required to inspect. I perform UT. I would like to have my dedicated QC employee back, because he is directly responsible to me and all that entails. Foreman who perform inspection put on a QC hat and are responsible to me when performing QC duties, but that is still not the same. More trouble found when I randomly check behind them, especialy welding inspection, than when I check behind my dedicated QC inspector. Production people are just hard to slow down and ongoing training is required. All this works pretty well for us, but things will be somewhat more sticky as we proceed through this AISC certification process and all personnel will have more responsibility and documentation laid upon them. Once again...training, training, training.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 03-01-2004 15:06

I concur with thcqci's approach. I too am the only CWI in our shop, responsible for 2 shifts and currently 30 people (after some recent cut backs), although I could get some back-up if needed and justified. My function is mostly QA but, depending on the job requirements, I also perform QC inspections according to the need. By that I mean, lay-out and fitting are rarely a problem area. Our foremen do a good job of assigning people according to their skills levels and see to their overall training in weak areas. They also have the primary responsibility for quality as it is understood that I cannot be everywhere at once.

Our receiving people do an excellent job of checking incoming materials and documenting problems so I don't have many worries in that area.

Even our welding concerns have been relatively to manage, not that there aren't some problems from time to time.

I think the best "tools" an inspector can use are communication and training. It hasn't always been the way it is for us right now. When I first started, most of our employees felt that QC was where you could lay all the blame. Either because "QC didn't catch it" after someone worked hard to slip it through, or QC was blamed for holding the job up by insisting everything has to be done right.
It became obvious early on that I cannot perform 100% of the needed inspections. It also became obvious that the more I tried to do that the more problems there were that would slip through. Partly because I was constantly rushed and partly because people become more complacent if they think they have a safety net.
After a while, we got some different people in management that could see the need for a functioning QC program, and not just for lip service.
One thing I did was to pay attention to areas where we were doing too good a job. Fitters were "polishing" beam copes and edges, welders were putting in 3/8" fillets where 5/16" was specified, and etc. By pointing out these things, I tried to show how QC can save time and money in terms that everyone could understand. In short, I worked at showing that QC is also interested increasing production and profits.
That makes it easier to get management to listen to you and helps to get their buy-on to the overall QC program. And easier to "sell" the need for training.
We have had some real success in holding Friday afternoon training sessions on specific topics that focus on correcting production problems. When we had hired a lot of new people, our beam copes started to suffer. Breaking everyone into smaller groups and holding a lecture/demonstration/"here-you-try-it" class really worked to fix the problem.

I'll say this, we aren't perfect and my job is very hectic at times. But if you make yourself a "team member" who happens to perform QA/QC, you'll get everyone's attention (management & procuction) a bit easier, and that makes the your own job easier.

Chet Guilford

By campro Date 03-02-2004 03:03

I would like to add that QC isnt something that a company wants but it is very important that you have one for the sake of the customer. The fabricating industry has become a paper trail for lack of better words in order to make sure the product orderd is the product recieved. I have been in the welding field for 10 years now and it is very importabt to me that the QC is happy with what I do. If there are no repairs then the company makes money because we all know that it takes twice as long to repair than to pour the weld in. I wouldnt put down a weld that I wouldnt buy so why should I or any welder put down something that the customer wouldnt want to.

Mike