how do you pipe liners welder so damn fast?

Date 12-23-2011 04:03

Time. most pipelines are setup on joints per day. ie: 120 joints per 12 hours if ya can get em done in 8 hrs you go home with 12 hrs. Pipelines usally weed out the slow and usally are set up as far as welding goes in three groups. Front end , firring line and tie in crew. everyone has a job and duty if you slow em down your gone.

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 12-24-2011 18:08

Soo you want to know the almighty secrect. Lol It's rather simple really in my opinion. You will kill yourself at the end of the day trying to keep up with a seasoned pipeliner. It's not so much that he is faster than everyone but he is more efficient than most welders. He dosent grind nor bead brushes more than is needed he welds at the very upper limit and in as few passes possible. He may weld in a certain way so that he is not jumping back and forth across the pipe as many times. He sets all his tools around him in a fashion that there all there at his disposal. Next time you go to work think in this mindset " How can I save a few seconds here or there in the way i am working or welding" Those seconds turn into minutes and at the end of the day those minutes turn into more welds.

By gndchuck (**)

Date 12-25-2011 02:02

You know that's what separates the people that learned from the older welders that were willing to teach and the ones that think they can't possibly learn any more. I've been at it for over 18 years and still learn sometime new on every job, and most of the time it's from the person that is just starting out.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-26-2011 07:19

Most likely he was runnin 5's or 3's down hill. Thats the speed of which you speak. Chasing your arc down a hill is faster than walking it back up.....?More heat means faster beads.

By rcwelding (***)

Date 12-27-2011 03:00 Edited 12-27-2011 03:04

I am working on some low pressure sch40 pipe right now.. Its 5p bead and 7018 fill and cap.. I thought I was an OK hand but I'm working with an old timer who is smoking me..

I am running a bunch of 4in and 6in and from fit up to cap Im taking about 10 to 15min depending on what the fitting is.. This old timer is smoking me by at least 5min every time... And..... Its NOT the machine... We switch machines and he is still stomping a hole in me with my machine and I'm on his..

I watch him and he isn't moving that fast but he just makes every single move count.. He doesn't grind because he doesn't need to..!! Every pass is just as slick as can be and looks like an automated machine welded it...

I don't have any pictures of his stuff but here is one of my welds... Yes I know its not Awesome but this old Goat makes my welds look like harmed Dog poo poo..!!!!

I will try to take a picture of some of his stuff and post it.. Its nice to see guys that can take a simple weld and turn it into art form and be FAST doing it..!!!

Attachment: lohycap.jpg (88k)

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-31-2011 04:45

Also as you progress through the ranks, you learn to use as much heat as the material can stand. Like everyone is saying, it's just the shear volume of welds you have done in position before. After a while you don't even think about what you are doing so much anymore.......I caught myself humming Hank III, and thinking about hooking a cat fish the other day during a b31.3 test. Stupid......

By Tex

Date 12-27-2011 04:31

Head down
A** up
You better keep movin
or you're gonna git f@#%*!

Competition and braggin rights have taught those guys how to hustle

By js55

Date 12-27-2011 14:48

hillbilly hit it on the head. Efficiency with experience. Its the same in the shops as well. We were used to getting 250 to 300 diameter inches a day (thats an 8 hour day and the equivelent of 25 to 30 10" welds w/ less than 2% reject rate) welding root to cap with GTAW as the root. You would not do this at first. It took time. And in time it felt almost effortless.

By Johnny Walker (***)

Date 01-04-2012 07:01

If u ain't first u are last ! Time and tricks stuff it full blow a cap on it

By matt002 Date 12-23-2011 18:48

"They don't grind?" Sure we do! And there is no "hope" about it. We have to pass certs, re-certs, X-rays, etc... just like everyone else. If you are "hoping" you are clean, then you won't make it very long. You are right about one thing though, we do like to burn it HOT :grin:

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-25-2011 03:00

i thought i was fast till i was across from an old 798 hand, hed bre at 6 oclock id be at three lol
i tried running my machine where he was set and couldn't do it One thing i did learn some welding
machines stack metal way faster than others and most of the guys i worked with had the rack rolled on their machine
to suit their position on the lline. i remember going back to hvac pipeing after working pipeline a couple years
and other welders were shocked hows fast you could burn out a 6" sch 40 joint with no xray requiremewnts to worry bout
we wouls straight cut the pipe that got a factory fbeveled fitting gapp it tight one hot pass 1/8 " 5p+ fill and cap with 5/32 at the same heat
if you had to bevel a pipe you cut the bevel with the torch beat the landing on with a single jack blow n go . got a little biggrer
gap on one side grab a bigger rod and go contractors were to cheap to buy remotes so i controlled my heat with rod size lol if they caught you
with a grinder they got your money. watch a metal trade helper on a pipeline he can grind the bead on a piece of 30" in miknutes and i've seen journeyman
fitters take two hours to grind a 6" lmao the average welder has no idea how fast a pipeline crew works. i think ole Cactus was talking about his
buddies crew that was whippen out 8" joints 100% x ray in three minutes now thats kicken somed serious ass

By Pickupman (***)

Date 12-25-2011 14:16 Edited 12-25-2011 21:21

I know I haven't been around a "real" pipeline job so if I could see it done like Joe is talking about I'd probably be OK with it. But not having seen it yet, images of the San Bruno fiasco keep flashing in my head. Like I said I haven't seen this kind of work done, and if I was the job inspector for the company I work for and someone did it that way, I'm sorry but there would be some suits on site real quick. The reason is that if I have to sign off on the quality of work another person does, and my job is on the line as well as his, then the work better be done according to the procedure no matter how long it takes. It's easier to justify taking longer than it is to justify having to do it over.
I do not mean to imply that it can't, shouldn't, couldn't be done, I'm just saying I'd have to get comfortable with it first. We recently lost (fired) what I considered to be an excellent welder because a couple welds were discovered where he had jammed things up and welded them out in a rush and had no penetration in the root. It called into question hundreds of other welds completed by this same welder. Not a good position to be in if you happened to be the inspector on the job. Thought I should clarify my earlier statements.

By fitter

Date 12-25-2011 16:48

Never thought it was a race. I worked nukes for most of my career, whole different ballgame.Different codes as well if I'm not mistaken, which are much more stringent.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-26-2011 20:01

read my post i was talking about goin fadt on hvac pipe not a pipeline. i would never
do what i described on a pipeline, steam lone orany pipe othderb than low pressure
chilled water.

By Pickupman (***)

Date 12-26-2011 22:25

Misunderstood Joe. No offense. :red:

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 12-31-2011 15:34

The welds that failed @ San Bruno were the SAW long seams and not the SMAW girth welds. Same with the little train wreck Plains has going in Ward County TX. The line was 100% radiographed but when the line was hydro tested, it was the ERW long seam the failed.Cross country pipelines are 100% radiographed including fabrication and I have NEVER seen a girth weld fail during a hydro.
When you look at Xcounty pipeline welding procedures the high end of the procedure for volts, amps and travel speed with a 3/16 rod allows the welder to turn and burn. And stay in the perimeters of the procedure. The heat and travel speed on the bead is generaly where they keep the speed and heat down. But even then they can get up to 12 to 15 IPM on the bead on larger heavier wall pipe.
Keep in mind pipeline welds are not subject to temperature issues like power or plant process welding.
When you start reviewing a good pipeline's radiographs, it is clean weld after clean weld.

By Welderod Date 12-25-2011 18:06

The lines I have been on we would just brush bead brush hot pass and cap and the reason I said hope u burnt it out is because there would be an occasional repair here and there and the only time we would use a grinder was on stuff above ground like launchers receivers and tying into meter runs but that stuff seems to take any welder a little longer

By Tyler1970 (***)

Date 12-26-2011 17:01

Lmao. I always see bead grinders unless the hot pass hands just want them buffed. And it would e hard as hell to cap a pipe full of slag flushed out

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-27-2011 12:09

The last pipe job I was on the guy from the gas company that I always work with said that I was faster than years earlier. I credit more experience, better rod control/puddle control. Still grind my root, wire each pass. All my tools are hanging on the pipe right where I need them, safety glasses under hood for quick changes.

Some speed on smaller pipe comes from bigger rod. I've heard of guys that like to use 5/32-3/16 rod on a 4" pipe. For me it always seems a bit excessive, heat wise, not saying it's wrong but there are several seasoned welders around here that I've talked to years ago that said the same thing, "why do you want to use a rod that big?" I'm no metalurgist though so can't tell if there is or is not an issue.

I agree with the steps, having things in there place is key. Minimum amount of movement and standing around thinking about what you need or need to do.

For me, I can't weld over a pile of slag and just burn it out. Not saying I can't do it but in my eye it's just not right. As somebody said "procedures" and mine say clean each pass. That's what they want me to do then there is a reason for it. Besides that I don't want to leave anything for that one time that something does go wrong. Shortcut long enough and its a matter of averages before something happens.

Joe,

When I first started welding I worked with a guy on some chiller pipe. That's what he told me to do. Just but them together and weld them out one pass, "It's just chill pipe" he'd say. I just said, "huh". Pretty much ignored the guy and beveled, open rooted it and welded it properly. Took longer as I was severely green but he was only on the job for a day or two then he was gone. I just could not do it. I'd let my imagination run and an earthquake would run through my mind, all the welds would crack and little kids would be getting soaked in school from chill water. Then they'd wonder why and it would lead back the mechanical company and ultimately.....me. Worked with a guy once and watched him weld up air line with 6011, 4" air line at a large factory, think he beveled it but just threw a heavy 7018 root, fill, cap in one pass with them butted together. That was another time I just sat back and said, "huh".

By 803056

Date 12-27-2011 14:01

Fitter;

You hit the nail on the head. Different codes, different requirements, different techniques.

I've seen som "fast welders" in my time as an inspector and spent weeks cutting them out and repairing them.

API 1104 has rather liberal acceptance criteria when compared to others such as B31.1, but even that is a cake walk compared to B31.3 High Pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I doff my hat to the experts that can weld quickly and still meet the code requirements, but not all codes are created equal.

I had one welder test with me several years ago. He cut the nipples from a length of pipe of 6 inch schedule 40, ground the bevel, and welded it out in a little less than an hour. He met B31.3 for Normal pipe with no problems. I was impressed to say the least. The man was all business, knew what to do, and how to do it. No bravado, just great skills. He was truly exceptional.

Best regards - Al

By fitter

Date 12-27-2011 23:24

Hi Al and Joe, I wasn't trying to say anything bad about how people weld, if it sounded like that then i am sorry. What I was trying to say is exactly what Al said about different codes. I did however see welders who would try to cut every corner and just do **** work, no bevel no square , or level and so on.Did a job on a coal fired way back when and the guy running the job said we were taking to long. 2 inch sockets for drains, so he took every level on the job so we had to eyeball the pitch. Two weeks after we left the pipe had split do to water in it freezing from being back pitched and exposed to frigid temps. Made everyone look really bad.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-27-2011 14:06

Id rather take the time and do it right Bevel both Pipes square ends with grinder , grind landing to be equal all the way round
the pipe. Fit pipe with proper roogt opening all the way round the pipe. weld root, lightly grind, weld hot pass wire wheel,
weld fill wire wheel, weld cap wire wheel grind buttons. In reality what you get in hvac is one side of joint butt tight other side
3/16 gap. don't have time to run back and forth turning up machine no remote weld the 3/16 gap up hill root butt tight side
downhill 1/8 . Hot pass downhill with 1/8 flush out at same time . Cap 5/32 down hill never touch the machine not sayen its right by
any means . Got laid off once for fefusing to fill a 3/8 gap with allthread rodand this was a ua union contractor!!

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-27-2011 16:58

I hear ya Joe. Been asked many times, "you can weld that right?" And I've told them many times sure if I was home and this was some bbq grille repair.

By hillbilly delux (***)

Date 12-31-2011 21:55

Just to give another perspective on this post and my position on some of the other things stated. I've been a pipeline bead hand for about the last 7 years or so and time is money. I will get away with anything that is allowable with in the code. If its 1104 I rarely bead brush between the bead pass and my hot fill. I will leave stuff in the weld rather than grind it out if I know it is with in code. I know that is a bold statement to make but it is the truth and all that comes into play when your setting the pace on the pipeline and I can make those calls and it all adds up to more production. Not trying to stir up a comotion here. Just thought when someone is wondering why a guy might be faster than the other that it comes down to expierence and confidence and what you can get away with and as I said before effecientcy. In reality your really not getting away with anything when your all your work is back by 100% x ray. But when your overlooking your weld and "poking around" and admireing what a slick job you did on it. I will have already been half way around the next one.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 12-31-2011 22:15

I could not ever compete with a an "experienced" pipe hand for speed and maybe not on quality when it comes to welding in the round. No matter what your doing it comes down to what a great mentor of mine told me once. The big difference between a good fast hand and a good hand is the the good fast one knows what to worry with and what not to.

When I get around other welders there is always something to be learned, good or bad. When I see somebody who can flat smoke it I pay special attention to what they do and don't do. I like to think I am pretty good guitar player, it is just like welding, there is always plenty of folks out there who can blow you away.

By Pickupman (***)

Date 12-31-2011 23:14

I agree. That's why i said if I could see someone like Al, Joe, Cactus, Hillbilly or kahunna or some of you other pipe guru's weld like that and know it was done right I'd be OK with it. But myself, and the guys I work with, are not at that level yet and without direct mentoring probably never will be. So I'm better off playing it safe by grinding my root and buffing my hot pass. Just for giggles I'm going to include a picture of the weld I had to "fix" yesterday because it was leaking. This is the way I found it. The 2" was leaking on the bottom. Nice huh?

By rcwelding (***)

Date 01-01-2012 03:00

Just curious... How the heck do you even fix that.. I would have to cut the whole dang thing out and start fresh.. That looks like Ray Charles welded it the day he had the flu..!!!

By jrw159

Date 01-02-2012 05:06

Oh my goodness, that is a Arkansas bell hole from way back. :eek:

jrw159

By 99205

Date 01-02-2012 06:22

Yep, that looks like azz.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 01-04-2012 16:49

I'd like to know how the hell you fix that? Cut the bad out slide a new piece in or what?

By empire welding (**)

Date 01-04-2012 18:43

Did the gas company's welder's do that. Those look like several I have repaired or replaced out here

By Pickupman (***)

Date 01-05-2012 00:55

I don't know who did it. It was put in in the late '40s or early '50s. I was trying to find out if it was originally acetylene welded and then "repaired" before. That is the only reason I can come up with for the state of the weld. There was VERY little room to work, so all I could do was run a bead over the area that was leaking. It is in a section of main that is one way feed and we would have to put a bypass in to keep from losing a bunch of houses. That wasn't really feasable as it is under a sidewalk and a 4" 3way would be too tall. It's bare steel so it should be coming up for replacement soon. This is the kind of stuff I run into all the time. I just wanted to share so I could get some sympathy. :grin:

By empire welding (**)

Date 01-05-2012 01:44

You have my sympathy. We've replaced all sorts of welds, buried leaking valves, tied in to stove pipe and rocket tubing all sorts of fun. It is great fun when the line is that old or older and water lines or phone cables or fiber optics or curb and gutter have all been placed right where you need to weld.

By Pickupman (***)

Date 01-05-2012 03:33

We found a piece of main this summer that is 2" below the curb under a hiway. The reason we found it was a service had been abandoned and they had taken the tee out of the main and put a 3/4 plug in the hole. It was against the concrete and corroded to the point of leaking. We find alot of stuff where instead of doing it right and replacing a line to maintain proper depth we have storm sewers or curbing or other utilities in conflict with us. I can show you storm drain catch basins with gas main poured into the concrete. :eek:

UNBELIEVABLE.