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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / CWI 9yr Recertification Course - Past Attendee Questions
- - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-03-2012 23:43 Edited 03-04-2012 00:16
I see that TB48's 9yr question below only got a few replies, but I'm hoping some of the folks that have participated in the 9yr recertification course can shed some light on the day-to-day details of the course.  I can understand that in order to fulfill the number of required hours the days are very long..... but I want to know how the days shake out.  I'm specifically curious if all these hours are classroom, or if there are nightly assignments etc.  How much of the classroom time is presentation verses group discussions or other activities?  And considering the long days, was your instructor able to keep the course interesting and lively?
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-04-2012 00:36
Thirdeye

In my opinion only lazy, incompetent and pseudo CWIs and registered professional engineers will take the Boot Camp.  If you are just an inspector in name only, and are afraid to pass a two hour hands-on practical examination, perhaps you should take the "Booby Camp".

Spoken loudly and proudly, with no apologies to the incompetent,

JOE KANE
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-04-2012 02:55
Joe, 

I've noticed from other posts you have a strong opinion on this subject...., but with all due respect, I'm actually curious and looking for some answers.  I hope your belittling doesn't scare anyone off that can provide them.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-04-2012 12:25 Edited 03-04-2012 12:30
Thirdeye

While I haven't participated in the 9 year recert course, I have taken advantage of a number of AWS sponsored courses. 

I'm very fortunate that in my line of work professional development is required/encouraged and when times are good, even paid for.

In fact I try to take one of those courses anually,  I have taken  MT, PT & UT courses by Mr. Thiess (sp).   I have taken the "roadmap" seminars and WPS/PQR development seminars with Ken Coryell and I have take the full week CWI prepatory boot-camp with Ed Bohnart.

I mention the names of the instructors for a reason,,, They are giants in our industry. If the door is open, only a fool wouldn't jump on the opportunity to learn from them. They know and share things that aren't in books and study guides

What I like best about the 3 men I mentioned is that their teaching style/method is strongly linked to the sharing of business scenerios that they have experienced; meaning they integrate the code or inspection principles into their presentations rather than just vomiting facts to a group of guys at tables.   I have also heard some negative stories about some of the presenters, so it might be worthwhile to really do some research before investing in the training if that's the way you go.

The time I spent in those seminars is an important part of my professional development. To this day I continue to network with a number of professionals I met at those seminars, and it has been a professional boon to me, and in some small way maybe even me to them.  I have gotten consulting work from, and passed on consulting work to, some of the folks I've worked with at those seminars. 

As far as Joe Kane goes...  You are entitled to your opinion, however, you also mention time and again in your postings in this forum, your personal membership and affiliation with various certification and code committees you sit on as a volunteer for the AWS, and in "my opinion" that holds you to a higher level of discourse than the average poster on this forum.

Shaming somebody for seeking professional development, whether or not that training exempts a person from an exam is less than kind and less than what somebody who represents the AWS even in a tertiary manner should pronounce.  I don't like calling out my betters or biting the hand that that has been both kind and generous to me over the years, but I also strongly disagree with essence of Joe K's post in response to Thirdeye.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 03-04-2012 14:14
Well said Lawrence and I would like to add that there are people who don't appreciate the "Slap Down" attitude displayed, by some of the senior posters, on this forum.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-04-2012 14:26
Hear Hear!

It's easy too do and to be honest, it is turning a lot of people away from this great forum!
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-04-2012 17:26
46.00

If you think this type of "Honesty" is too crude for the Forum, you need to go home and tell your Mommy on me!
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-04-2012 19:07
Just being a 'Dullard'!

My 'Dullard' a  day post!
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-04-2012 17:28
99205

No Apologies.  When it comes to CWI Boot Camp, brute verbal force is not inappropriate.  Go home and change your skirt!
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 03-04-2012 22:04
Hmm, "go home and change my skirt".  Well I have to say, in my 60 years, I've worked with a number of personalities like yours and could care less about your childish remarks.  If you feel you need to "billy club" the other posters in this forum, with your many titles and centuries of experience, have at it.  I have little respect for people that feel they are the standard, that everyone within shouting distance, needs to look up to.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-04-2012 16:54 Edited 03-04-2012 17:25
Lawrence

I just BELITTLE any CWI who needs to go to the Boot Camp for 9 year re-certification, because they feel trepidation about taking the two hour hands-on examination.  As for professional development courses, that particular course sticks in my craw with a long history.  I do not apologize for my outspoken scorn.  I state it loudly and proudly!  I do not say anything bad about anyone who gets any form of education or training in order improve their knowledge of the profession.

If you need some professional development courses to re-certify, there are many others that fit into the categories listed in AWS B 5.1.  If you want to go to the Boot Camp just to learn, - Fine!  HOWEVER - If you use Boot Camp to Re-Certify, B******T! You get no respect from me!  I also take ANY type of statement, that indicates that Boot Camp is just another "Professional Development Course", and the instructors are great, and you can learn so much from the other attendees, ETC., ETC., ETC.,  akin to saying you have a Playboy Magazine subscription just because you like the great informative articles! 

Many times I have heard forum members griping about how AWS is just out for the money.  Well the Boot Camp is a real and true example.  Boot was foisted on the Certification Committee, and initially did not even meet the 80 hour standard!  I objected to it back then, and I object to it now!  It was an economic development product of the AWS Staff! 

If you are an Engineer, who has a CWI, and wants to keep it, you may never actually do hands-on inspection, and could easily fail the examination and lose your certification.  That Engineer, if he meets the other criteria listed in AWS B 5.1,  should take a Boot Camp.   One of my own supervisors went to Boot Camp.  He did it, because the only codes he uses are the New York State Steel Construction Manual (The Granddaddy of the AWS D 1.5, Bridge Welding Code) - and the AASHTO Manual.  He seldom inspects a weld, but he does many of the other duties listed in the AWS B 5.1, so legitimacy of his experience is not the issue in his case.

Having said all that, I know each of the three instructors listed in one of the replies, and If you look through my previous posts, you will find that I have great respect and admiration for each of them.

By the way, my tenure as a member of the Main Committee expired  in December.  I am now just an Advisor to the Main Committee.  I am still Chairman of the structural Inspection Subcommittee, and remain a member of the other Subcommittees that I served on.

With no apologies, Joe Kane
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-04-2012 18:41
Joe,

I'm glad you made it clear technically, "why" you disapprove of the boot camp.  It puts validity behind your criticism.

Who am I to suggest to you that there may be better methods to persuade folks to see things your way?

Nonetheless... currently the boot camp is in line with the specification (B5.1) therefore the very essence of legitimacy, whether you like it or not.

I just don't see any value in questioning the professionalism of people who are complying with the standard.

Rage against the standard/s you disagree with seems perfectly reasonable. 

Trying to now be brief so as not to derail any other helpful responses to the original poster/s.
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-04-2012 18:56
Joe,

After reading your reply to Lawrence,  your one statement  “I just BELITTLE any CWI who needs to go to the Boot Camp for 9 year re-certification…”   helps me understand your opinion a little clearer than I did when I read your reply to me.   “Choosing” to go and “needing” to go are two entirely different things.

I don’t fit the stereotype of the people you think take the recertification course. I’m not an engineer, not lazy or incompetent, and if you are implying a pseudo CWI is someone that is not genuine ….  Well, that shoe doesn't fit me either.  Actually, when I took my CWI examination I used borrowed study materials, organized a study group and enlisted the help of another CWI as a resource person. I studied for months.  My examination was on a Saturday and I was one of the last few people to turn in my test in all three sessions.  I was confident I scored well, and in fact I did. On the practical examination I only missed two questions.  I am a working inspector and at the end of the day my blue collar is generally as dirty as my hands and knees are. I am very fortunate in that I have several longtime customers, the longest being 33 years, and I work with a group of very skilled welders that understand the importance of quality as much as I do.

All that said, with a little refreshing I’m 100% confident I can pass the practical examination.  Considering the recertification course is only an option I’m exploring.  The time away from my job is no problem, the cost of the course is not an issue, I will be paid while taking the class, and I enjoy interacting with other professionals.  A 12 hour day is normal for me, so 14 hours a day of classroom time is no big deal provided the time is well spent and interesting.
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-04-2012 18:50
Thanks for sharing your experiences, insight and opinions with us Lawrence,

I too believe in continuing education and personal development, but in the first 25 years of my inspection career options were limited, time was limited and funds were limited.  So many folks in my shoes did the next best thing…. We purchased study and reference materials for our own library, and learned the best we could from others willing to share their knowledge. 

In the last 10 years of my career, the focus on education has changed (on many levels), and of course my business lifestyle and priorities have changed as well.  I still am a bookworm at heart, but the internet and seminars are attractive because I really enjoy sharing information in an informal setting…. Just like we are doing now, and others do on this forum every day.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-04-2012 23:30
Thirdeye,

I can relate to Joe's overall position on the 'Boot Camp' when used by those who either don't know what they are doing or are just afraid to even try.  And yes, I agree it is more reasonable to take a two hour exam than spend so much time going through a class just to avoid the exam because of fear of failure.

BUT, I am with you and Lawrence (and Joe even said he sees nothing wrong with continuing education when used to expand one's knowledge base) that I love information and networking with others.  My wife says I am an information sponge.  Especially in my main areas of interest (which are limited to my religion, hunting, and welding/inspections) I gleen as much info as I can at every opportunity.

I have not attended the 9 YR Recert class but got some info on it at the FabTech Conference in Chicago.  Sounded very interesting and informative.  And, speaking of FabTech, I went to every available presentation I had time for during the week.  I was on the go and in somekind of seminar, presentation, or committee meeting most of the time.  Had very limited time to walk the show floor (but enough to be totally impressed).  I have sat through the CWI Prep Seminar as a Section Representative and learned as much as I did the first time when I got certified.  I have heard three different seminar instructors and found all of them very good.  The instructor for the WPS class at FabTech was very good (though I have sent formal complaint that the content did not go far enough and was not what was advertised). 

Bottom line for me, 1) you can't get too much education, 2) you can't do too much networking, and 3) every course presented by AWS is very well done and has offered me more knowledge to apply to my work.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-05-2012 00:51
Personally, I see little value sitting for a 2-hour examination that I've already taken and passed. My view of taking the 2-hour exmination is that it is intended for the CWI that is "on the line" doing very basic CWI work and probably has had little opportunity for advancement. It gives the CWI the opportunity to demonstrate he or she still retains the ability to use a fillet weld gage. 

I doubt there are many experienced CWIs that meet the requalification requirements that have forgotten how to use a fillet weld gage or how to read and use a "made up" welding standard, i.e., the Part B Specification. If they do, it is because their job responsibilities do not require those skills.

I've taught the 9 year Boot Camp. It is only as informative as the attendee makes it. You can be part of the class and learn a great deal or you can sleep through the class and waste your time and money. There is no formal examination at the end of the course where the attendee passes or fails. If there is a weakness in the program, it is the absence of an examination.

I can't speak for the other instructors, my class took the fundamentals examination, we reviewed subjects similar to those covered in the CWI, we had discussions of how different scenarios could be handled, and we toured the aircraft carrier Midway. During the tour we broke into groups for the purpose of performing visual inspections on several sections of the ship. Each group then wrote a report and presented the results to the entire class.

The strength of the 9-year Boot Camp is the interaction of the experienced CWIs in attendance and the information they share with each other. You can think of it as an extended session of the Forum. Can the 9-year Boot Camp be improved? Absolutely. That's why I tell people I've never taught the same course twice. I attempt to improve the course every time I teach it.

The bottom line is I believe the number of practicing CWIs that lose their basic skills over time is few. They may pick up a few bad habits during their 9-years as a practicing CWI, but little is remedied by retaking the 2-hour Part B examination.

I am in favor of earning PDHs as a way to maintain inspection skills and to expand the skill set needed by an inspector. The functions filled by CWIs are many. The skill sets needed vary as well. It isn't a case of "one shoe fits all." The skills needed to pass the CWI examinations are the basic skills needed to function as a CWI. Earning PDHs allows the inspector to customize the skills needed to fulfill their specific job responsibilities and to advance their career.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-05-2012 03:29
Brent,
Not only have you added some reinforcement to Lawrence’s post (from a different perspective), but I appreciate your personal comments regarding  AWS courses in general.


Al,
You made some excellent points and I like your philosophy.  With such a diverse group of folks  here on the forum, I don’t know why I targeted my question toward  CWI’s only… I’m glad you jumped in with an instructor’s perspective when answering my questions.

So far, everyone has given me a lot to think about….. which is exactly what I wanted!
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 03-05-2012 13:49
I attended the boot camp in Orlando about 4 years ago.
When I was up for re-cert, I decided on the boot camp not because I was worried about not being able to pass the test, but as a way to go on a semi-vacation, or to get away from the shop for a few days, and to hopefully learn about new changes in the codes that I had not worked with in years.
The experience far exceeded my expectations. I thoroughly enjoyed being able to network with fellow professionals, discuss problems and solutions, and learn new things about the codes along the way. The "Boot Camp" itself was basically structured but mostly revolved on letting each participant discuss real world problems they were having and receive good advice on how to ease the situation(s). With about 25 professionals in attendance, there was a cornucopia of knowledge to absorb on any topic. Of all the training or refresher seminars I've attended over the years, I got the most out of the boot camp than any other.
Also, the hotel hosting the seminar was right outside the gate of Disney Land which was nice.
I absolutely intend on doing the same when I'm up for re-cert again.
If that makes me a lazy bum, then I'll be one with a smile on. :grin:

Tim Gary
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-05-2012 04:31
Al, 

I highly appreciate your philosophy as well.  Your line of reasoning makes much sense.

Part of the problem I have is that people can take this class last minute, not take any test, sleep through it without contributing anything of real substance and not truly get 'Continuing Education' during any of the rest of their 9 year work history.  Their main reason for skipping the two hour that they would have to take were it not for this course is fear of failure. 

I personally would really like to see more emphasis placed upon 'Continuing Education'.  I think it is something we all need.  I would also like to see some things made clearer as to what is accepted as continuing education.  I do things that may not qualify and yet I find essential to my work.  (Computer studies, should probably take some Spanish classes for better communication, and other AWS section activities that are possibly not accepted for PDH's).  I have requested information a couple of times about rather a particular activity would be acceptable or not and never got a response. (The only question BTW that I never got answered when dealing with Miami).  I participated anyway because I felt it beneficial rather or not it helps me reach my PDH requirements.  And I do feel they purposefully left the area somewhat open so people could get education in their specific line of work application.  But I have heard many a report of PDH's being rejected and Part B having to be taken last minute even though they were sure they had earned enough hours.  It can be difficult to get scheduled for an exam when your time is short. 

Much of this is not the fault or problem of the 9Yr Recert Seminar.  It is all in how a person uses it and their overall view of education and the responsibilities of our job.  I do applaud the efforts to offer more education opportunities to our CWI's.  I'm sure it will be refined as it progresses.  I'm sure none of the current seminar opportunities was a complete success on it's first offering.

Once again, Constructive Criticism offered up the correct channels is the best way to correct weaknesses and make any seminar successful and profitable.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-06-2012 05:03
Hello Brent;

The Certification Committee provided direction to the then Secretary of the Certification Committee (AWS Staff) to develop an outline of the type of training/educational courses that would be approved for PDHs. The individual moved on and I don't know that the task was ever completed.

I am not speaking for the committee, but as I understand it, if the courses taken can be aligned with the job responsibilities listed in table 1 of AWS B5.1, credit will be awarded provided the supporting documentation as described in QC1 accompanies the application for recertification.

As an example: A CWI is expected to write reports, so a course in English Composition would be accepted and PDHs would be awarded.
                         A CWI is expected to do basic shop math, so a course in geometry, trigonometry, algebra, etc. would be acceptable and PDHs would be awarded.
                         A CWI is expected to read blueprints, so a course in mechanical drawing, CAD, etc. would be acceptable and PDHs would be awarded.

Once again, appropriate supporting documentation as described in QC1 is required. If there is no supporting documentation, i.e., a transcript and a synopsis of the course is not provided, the PDHs will not be awarded.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-06-2012 15:34
Thanks Al,

I appreciate the added info.  Hopefully, while slightly off the OP question, this is still on track as it relates specifically to getting requalified as a CWI at the 9 Yr Recert time period.

I think we often also miss the local section technical presentations that should have PDH's awarded.  Our section didn't send some that I felt qualified because they never got signed by the proper person. 

It is not that difficult to accumulate the PDH's required when due diligence is practiced in recording all the applicable opportunities.  Miami was very good about sending me all I needed from all I attended at FabTech in Chicago. 

If one is truly interested in improving his qualifications, education, skills and abilities as an inspector you would think they would be actively involved in continuing education.  Seminars from any organization, college classes, section meetings, and other opportunities abound for us.  A 9 year time period amounts to less than 10 PDH's per year.  That is a pretty easy goal. 

A was glad to read Al's and I believe TimGary's responses from instructor's and participants perspectives.  And as Lawrence, myself, and others have stated, we value the TRUE continuing education.  Couple that desire with Al's perspective of the continuing education being of more benefit than retaking an exam that you already proved you could pass then why would someone NOT take the Boot Camp Seminar?  That doesn't disregard some of my concerns and Joe's that it really comes down to the attitude and reason of the participant and what they intend to get out of ANY class or seminar.  Good people come out of any school no matter how good or bad the instructor and/or material AND bad people come out of any school no matter how good or bad the instuctor or material.  It is all about personal attitude, habits, goals, and desire for knowledge to better oneself in their chosen profession.  And as I work around more and more inspectors it is obvious when you see the difference between those that keep learning and applying versus those who got by by the skin of their teeth and are still that way. 

Thirdeye, My personal conclusion from the discussion thus far:  TAKE THE CLASS.  And next time, plan ahead and don't get in a position where you have to take the whole 80 hours at one time.  While I intend to have all the PDH's plus some (I'm already at about 60 and have 5 years to go), I may take it just for the interaction and networking opportunities. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By TB48 (*) Date 03-05-2012 15:41
Since my original question was brought up about the refresher course I would first like to say I am not afraid to pass the Part B exam. I have done so before. I was wondering about the boot camp as you call it to see if it would be beneficial in learning more. I like to learn. I see from some of the other posters that it was beneficial to them because of the other professionals there. That is what I was looking for. I like discussing what I do with others and thought maybe somebody in the class would be able to help me in areas if needed and maybe something I could help them with.
Parent - By vagabond (***) Date 03-06-2012 05:28
Well when the time for my 9 yr. gets here which is soon I will do everything I can to avoid ever sitting for another test developed by the AWS.  I think I have already met the necessary requirements thru my Film Interp. class I just took but we'll see.  My CWI 40 hr. class in Pheonix when I initially got it was a good experience.  I did my homework on here and I got in one of Ed Bohnharts classes.  I felt it was money and time well spent.  I have also always gotten good advice here on the forum from some people involved with AWS, such as Joe Kane. 

Now on the other side of the coin whenever I have attempted to handle something through the Miami office I have been extremely disappointed with their lack of professionalism or anything that even resembles customer service.  It has to be one of the worst bunch of people I can remember dealing with. 

Many of my colleagues took the prep class with different instructors and had bad experiences that were very different than mine.  One friend took the class from someone who probably should have been removed as an instructor a long time ago and almost his entire class failed.  Now AWS did let them take another class but as far as I know they still were out plane tickets, meals, hotel etc. 

As far as the CWI test goes I have always felt that it is designed very poorly.  Much attention is paid to things that a real life CWI will never use or use less that 5% of the time, while there is very little about important things like really being able to interpret and review WPS/PQRs etc.  I also currently hold an API 510, 570 and 653.  Personally I felt the API test are more straight forward and designed to test a person's knowledge of the subject matter.  The CWI test is designed to be a test that maintains a high fail rate which in turn generates more income for the AWS.  And no I didn't fail my CWI test for what it's worth,  I actually did pretty well on it.  And while we are on the subject of the test(s) you should either be a CWI or not.  Endorsements are just another income stream,  I don't have to test for seperate vessels or tanks to be an API inspector.  Either you can interpret code or you can't.  Period.  A weld defect on a sky scraper is still a weld defect on a bridge isn't it?

As far as the cert. goes because they give the test every week they have flooded the market with CWI's which has driven the wages down for this certification.  The lack of effort that is put into researching whether an individual is qualified or not is also of concern to most people who are tasked with hiring/reviewing inspectors.  I sure don't assume that every CWI has 5 yrs. experience because that is not the case.  I once was around a guy who claimed he had got it at 20 yrs. old.  So I guess he started getting experience at 15??  Another thing that should be changed is how someone can verify a CWI.  With the API database all I need is a name to find out if someone is who they say they are.

Just my .02.  Take it for what it's worth.
- - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-23-2012 12:01
Just a quick update..... after considering all the replies here and visiting with 6 other CWI's I've decided the Seminar is the way to go.  The professional interaction and sharing of experience will be more advantageous to me than just taking an examination.  I'm signed up, locked in and looking forward to it.....
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-23-2012 13:44
I just saw this thread for the first time.
I took the one day seminar before my 9 yr re-cert and I inspect welds all day long.  I found it very helpful and good to get back in the classroom and practise with the parts a day before the test.  I found it made me a little calmer and more prepared.
Good luck
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-24-2012 02:53
Oh, the seminar I'm talkng about is the week long one... at one time it was referred to as the "boot-camp", which is an appropriate name in some CWI's eyes.  It's one of the several options for 9yr  renewal, and this particular option does not involve an actual "test".
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-26-2012 15:48
Is that the week long program that you can opt to take in place of the actual test?
I've heard of it but not familier with it.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-26-2012 16:00
Chris, the course satisfies the # of hours of training required, in the last 3 years, so you sort of get around having to retest. I used my NDT training hours and didn't have to retest when I went through my 9 yr renewal several years ago. I see both sides of this....retesting on something that we've all done before and should have no problem doing again, is kind of silly waste of money, so taking something like a worthwhile course to gain the hours required to advoid retesting is worth considering.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 03-27-2012 10:19
agreed
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / CWI 9yr Recertification Course - Past Attendee Questions

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