Well said Lawrence and I would like to add that there are people who don't appreciate the "Slap Down" attitude displayed, by some of the senior posters, on this forum.
Lawrence
I just BELITTLE any CWI who needs to go to the Boot Camp for 9 year re-certification, because they feel trepidation about taking the two hour hands-on examination. As for professional development courses, that particular course sticks in my craw with a long history. I do not apologize for my outspoken scorn. I state it loudly and proudly! I do not say anything bad about anyone who gets any form of education or training in order improve their knowledge of the profession.
If you need some professional development courses to re-certify, there are many others that fit into the categories listed in AWS B 5.1. If you want to go to the Boot Camp just to learn, - Fine! HOWEVER - If you use Boot Camp to Re-Certify, B******T! You get no respect from me! I also take ANY type of statement, that indicates that Boot Camp is just another "Professional Development Course", and the instructors are great, and you can learn so much from the other attendees, ETC., ETC., ETC., akin to saying you have a Playboy Magazine subscription just because you like the great informative articles!
Many times I have heard forum members griping about how AWS is just out for the money. Well the Boot Camp is a real and true example. Boot was foisted on the Certification Committee, and initially did not even meet the 80 hour standard! I objected to it back then, and I object to it now! It was an economic development product of the AWS Staff!
If you are an Engineer, who has a CWI, and wants to keep it, you may never actually do hands-on inspection, and could easily fail the examination and lose your certification. That Engineer, if he meets the other criteria listed in AWS B 5.1, should take a Boot Camp. One of my own supervisors went to Boot Camp. He did it, because the only codes he uses are the New York State Steel Construction Manual (The Granddaddy of the AWS D 1.5, Bridge Welding Code) - and the AASHTO Manual. He seldom inspects a weld, but he does many of the other duties listed in the AWS B 5.1, so legitimacy of his experience is not the issue in his case.
Having said all that, I know each of the three instructors listed in one of the replies, and If you look through my previous posts, you will find that I have great respect and admiration for each of them.
By the way, my tenure as a member of the Main Committee expired in December. I am now just an Advisor to the Main Committee. I am still Chairman of the structural Inspection Subcommittee, and remain a member of the other Subcommittees that I served on.
With no apologies, Joe Kane
Joe,
I'm glad you made it clear technically, "why" you disapprove of the boot camp. It puts validity behind your criticism.
Who am I to suggest to you that there may be better methods to persuade folks to see things your way?
Nonetheless... currently the boot camp is in line with the specification (B5.1) therefore the very essence of legitimacy, whether you like it or not.
I just don't see any value in questioning the professionalism of people who are complying with the standard.
Rage against the standard/s you disagree with seems perfectly reasonable.
Trying to now be brief so as not to derail any other helpful responses to the original poster/s.
Joe,
After reading your reply to Lawrence, your one statement “I just BELITTLE any CWI who needs to go to the Boot Camp for 9 year re-certification…” helps me understand your opinion a little clearer than I did when I read your reply to me. “Choosing” to go and “needing” to go are two entirely different things.
I don’t fit the stereotype of the people you think take the recertification course. I’m not an engineer, not lazy or incompetent, and if you are implying a pseudo CWI is someone that is not genuine …. Well, that shoe doesn't fit me either. Actually, when I took my CWI examination I used borrowed study materials, organized a study group and enlisted the help of another CWI as a resource person. I studied for months. My examination was on a Saturday and I was one of the last few people to turn in my test in all three sessions. I was confident I scored well, and in fact I did. On the practical examination I only missed two questions. I am a working inspector and at the end of the day my blue collar is generally as dirty as my hands and knees are. I am very fortunate in that I have several longtime customers, the longest being 33 years, and I work with a group of very skilled welders that understand the importance of quality as much as I do.
All that said, with a little refreshing I’m 100% confident I can pass the practical examination. Considering the recertification course is only an option I’m exploring. The time away from my job is no problem, the cost of the course is not an issue, I will be paid while taking the class, and I enjoy interacting with other professionals. A 12 hour day is normal for me, so 14 hours a day of classroom time is no big deal provided the time is well spent and interesting.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, insight and opinions with us Lawrence,
I too believe in continuing education and personal development, but in the first 25 years of my inspection career options were limited, time was limited and funds were limited. So many folks in my shoes did the next best thing…. We purchased study and reference materials for our own library, and learned the best we could from others willing to share their knowledge.
In the last 10 years of my career, the focus on education has changed (on many levels), and of course my business lifestyle and priorities have changed as well. I still am a bookworm at heart, but the internet and seminars are attractive because I really enjoy sharing information in an informal setting…. Just like we are doing now, and others do on this forum every day.
Thirdeye,
I can relate to Joe's overall position on the 'Boot Camp' when used by those who either don't know what they are doing or are just afraid to even try. And yes, I agree it is more reasonable to take a two hour exam than spend so much time going through a class just to avoid the exam because of fear of failure.
BUT, I am with you and Lawrence (and Joe even said he sees nothing wrong with continuing education when used to expand one's knowledge base) that I love information and networking with others. My wife says I am an information sponge. Especially in my main areas of interest (which are limited to my religion, hunting, and welding/inspections) I gleen as much info as I can at every opportunity.
I have not attended the 9 YR Recert class but got some info on it at the FabTech Conference in Chicago. Sounded very interesting and informative. And, speaking of FabTech, I went to every available presentation I had time for during the week. I was on the go and in somekind of seminar, presentation, or committee meeting most of the time. Had very limited time to walk the show floor (but enough to be totally impressed). I have sat through the CWI Prep Seminar as a Section Representative and learned as much as I did the first time when I got certified. I have heard three different seminar instructors and found all of them very good. The instructor for the WPS class at FabTech was very good (though I have sent formal complaint that the content did not go far enough and was not what was advertised).
Bottom line for me, 1) you can't get too much education, 2) you can't do too much networking, and 3) every course presented by AWS is very well done and has offered me more knowledge to apply to my work.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Personally, I see little value sitting for a 2-hour examination that I've already taken and passed. My view of taking the 2-hour exmination is that it is intended for the CWI that is "on the line" doing very basic CWI work and probably has had little opportunity for advancement. It gives the CWI the opportunity to demonstrate he or she still retains the ability to use a fillet weld gage.
I doubt there are many experienced CWIs that meet the requalification requirements that have forgotten how to use a fillet weld gage or how to read and use a "made up" welding standard, i.e., the Part B Specification. If they do, it is because their job responsibilities do not require those skills.
I've taught the 9 year Boot Camp. It is only as informative as the attendee makes it. You can be part of the class and learn a great deal or you can sleep through the class and waste your time and money. There is no formal examination at the end of the course where the attendee passes or fails. If there is a weakness in the program, it is the absence of an examination.
I can't speak for the other instructors, my class took the fundamentals examination, we reviewed subjects similar to those covered in the CWI, we had discussions of how different scenarios could be handled, and we toured the aircraft carrier Midway. During the tour we broke into groups for the purpose of performing visual inspections on several sections of the ship. Each group then wrote a report and presented the results to the entire class.
The strength of the 9-year Boot Camp is the interaction of the experienced CWIs in attendance and the information they share with each other. You can think of it as an extended session of the Forum. Can the 9-year Boot Camp be improved? Absolutely. That's why I tell people I've never taught the same course twice. I attempt to improve the course every time I teach it.
The bottom line is I believe the number of practicing CWIs that lose their basic skills over time is few. They may pick up a few bad habits during their 9-years as a practicing CWI, but little is remedied by retaking the 2-hour Part B examination.
I am in favor of earning PDHs as a way to maintain inspection skills and to expand the skill set needed by an inspector. The functions filled by CWIs are many. The skill sets needed vary as well. It isn't a case of "one shoe fits all." The skills needed to pass the CWI examinations are the basic skills needed to function as a CWI. Earning PDHs allows the inspector to customize the skills needed to fulfill their specific job responsibilities and to advance their career.
Best regards - Al
Brent,
Not only have you added some reinforcement to Lawrence’s post (from a different perspective), but I appreciate your personal comments regarding AWS courses in general.
Al,
You made some excellent points and I like your philosophy. With such a diverse group of folks here on the forum, I don’t know why I targeted my question toward CWI’s only… I’m glad you jumped in with an instructor’s perspective when answering my questions.
So far, everyone has given me a lot to think about….. which is exactly what I wanted!
I attended the boot camp in Orlando about 4 years ago.
When I was up for re-cert, I decided on the boot camp not because I was worried about not being able to pass the test, but as a way to go on a semi-vacation, or to get away from the shop for a few days, and to hopefully learn about new changes in the codes that I had not worked with in years.
The experience far exceeded my expectations. I thoroughly enjoyed being able to network with fellow professionals, discuss problems and solutions, and learn new things about the codes along the way. The "Boot Camp" itself was basically structured but mostly revolved on letting each participant discuss real world problems they were having and receive good advice on how to ease the situation(s). With about 25 professionals in attendance, there was a cornucopia of knowledge to absorb on any topic. Of all the training or refresher seminars I've attended over the years, I got the most out of the boot camp than any other.
Also, the hotel hosting the seminar was right outside the gate of Disney Land which was nice.
I absolutely intend on doing the same when I'm up for re-cert again.
If that makes me a lazy bum, then I'll be one with a smile on.
Tim Gary
Al,
I highly appreciate your philosophy as well. Your line of reasoning makes much sense.
Part of the problem I have is that people can take this class last minute, not take any test, sleep through it without contributing anything of real substance and not truly get 'Continuing Education' during any of the rest of their 9 year work history. Their main reason for skipping the two hour that they would have to take were it not for this course is fear of failure.
I personally would really like to see more emphasis placed upon 'Continuing Education'. I think it is something we all need. I would also like to see some things made clearer as to what is accepted as continuing education. I do things that may not qualify and yet I find essential to my work. (Computer studies, should probably take some Spanish classes for better communication, and other AWS section activities that are possibly not accepted for PDH's). I have requested information a couple of times about rather a particular activity would be acceptable or not and never got a response. (The only question BTW that I never got answered when dealing with Miami). I participated anyway because I felt it beneficial rather or not it helps me reach my PDH requirements. And I do feel they purposefully left the area somewhat open so people could get education in their specific line of work application. But I have heard many a report of PDH's being rejected and Part B having to be taken last minute even though they were sure they had earned enough hours. It can be difficult to get scheduled for an exam when your time is short.
Much of this is not the fault or problem of the 9Yr Recert Seminar. It is all in how a person uses it and their overall view of education and the responsibilities of our job. I do applaud the efforts to offer more education opportunities to our CWI's. I'm sure it will be refined as it progresses. I'm sure none of the current seminar opportunities was a complete success on it's first offering.
Once again, Constructive Criticism offered up the correct channels is the best way to correct weaknesses and make any seminar successful and profitable.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Hello Brent;
The Certification Committee provided direction to the then Secretary of the Certification Committee (AWS Staff) to develop an outline of the type of training/educational courses that would be approved for PDHs. The individual moved on and I don't know that the task was ever completed.
I am not speaking for the committee, but as I understand it, if the courses taken can be aligned with the job responsibilities listed in table 1 of AWS B5.1, credit will be awarded provided the supporting documentation as described in QC1 accompanies the application for recertification.
As an example: A CWI is expected to write reports, so a course in English Composition would be accepted and PDHs would be awarded.
A CWI is expected to do basic shop math, so a course in geometry, trigonometry, algebra, etc. would be acceptable and PDHs would be awarded.
A CWI is expected to read blueprints, so a course in mechanical drawing, CAD, etc. would be acceptable and PDHs would be awarded.
Once again, appropriate supporting documentation as described in QC1 is required. If there is no supporting documentation, i.e., a transcript and a synopsis of the course is not provided, the PDHs will not be awarded.
I hope this is helpful.
Best regards - Al
Thanks Al,
I appreciate the added info. Hopefully, while slightly off the OP question, this is still on track as it relates specifically to getting requalified as a CWI at the 9 Yr Recert time period.
I think we often also miss the local section technical presentations that should have PDH's awarded. Our section didn't send some that I felt qualified because they never got signed by the proper person.
It is not that difficult to accumulate the PDH's required when due diligence is practiced in recording all the applicable opportunities. Miami was very good about sending me all I needed from all I attended at FabTech in Chicago.
If one is truly interested in improving his qualifications, education, skills and abilities as an inspector you would think they would be actively involved in continuing education. Seminars from any organization, college classes, section meetings, and other opportunities abound for us. A 9 year time period amounts to less than 10 PDH's per year. That is a pretty easy goal.
A was glad to read Al's and I believe TimGary's responses from instructor's and participants perspectives. And as Lawrence, myself, and others have stated, we value the TRUE continuing education. Couple that desire with Al's perspective of the continuing education being of more benefit than retaking an exam that you already proved you could pass then why would someone NOT take the Boot Camp Seminar? That doesn't disregard some of my concerns and Joe's that it really comes down to the attitude and reason of the participant and what they intend to get out of ANY class or seminar. Good people come out of any school no matter how good or bad the instructor and/or material AND bad people come out of any school no matter how good or bad the instuctor or material. It is all about personal attitude, habits, goals, and desire for knowledge to better oneself in their chosen profession. And as I work around more and more inspectors it is obvious when you see the difference between those that keep learning and applying versus those who got by by the skin of their teeth and are still that way.
Thirdeye, My personal conclusion from the discussion thus far: TAKE THE CLASS. And next time, plan ahead and don't get in a position where you have to take the whole 80 hours at one time. While I intend to have all the PDH's plus some (I'm already at about 60 and have 5 years to go), I may take it just for the interaction and networking opportunities.
Have a Great Day, Brent