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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / spraying water on carbon steel welds
- - By joemahoney Date 03-15-2012 20:28
I was at the shop the other day doing my walk trough checking out the the welders. I noticed that one of the pipe welders was spraying water on mild carbon steel welds , kinda shocked me because I have never seen any one do that to carbon .Stainless I have seen but carbon no, so my question is this a good practice or is it compromising the weld .any help would be appreciated.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 03-15-2012 21:20
I would have asked the welder why he was doing that. Maybe he had a reason for thinking that it was very important.
After listening to him, I would have explained him that it's not a thing to be done for a number of reasons, the main one being that by spraying cold water onto just finished welds may produce cracks.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-16-2012 04:20
My opinion is that the welder didn't have a clue what he was doing, or simlpy didn't care. If you want brittle welds where the base material and weld fuse, then spray water on your weld when you are done with it...................
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-17-2012 00:55
You learn something new every day. hmmmm.........
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-16-2012 11:49 Edited 03-16-2012 11:51
I am going to disagree slightly with the other posts. If the material is mild steel spraying it with water is not going to effect it at all. The hardenability of low and medium carbon steel is so low that it requires an extreme cooling rate for martensite to form. You 'might' get there if you took the whole weld and dropped it in a bucket of water to quench it but not from spraying. 
Its done all the time.
In fact, who knows you might even decrease the volume percent of polygonal ferrite and increase the volume percent of acicular ferrite and improve impact properties.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-16-2012 13:03
Hi!

I am not a metallurgist, but I have encountered this situation in the past and have been inundated with reports from welders about what supervision were doing to there welds to cool them down!
Basically, I agree with js55 for mild steel, with SS I don't see a problem at all! I am more than willing to listen to other Ideas about this subject?
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 03-16-2012 20:37
js,
You're perfectly right at what you say about hardenability and martensite formation in low carbon steel.
However, spraying cold water onto a just finished and very hot weld will most probably produce cracks. That's why I don't like the procedure.
Giovanni S. Crisi
- - By rshanks (**) Date 03-15-2012 21:13
The first question I would ask is why? Is the joint restrained? Thickness? Never a good practice on Temps above 600F. I would bring the temp down slow if absolutley needed,  to interpass range
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-15-2012 22:26
My line of thinking is similar to RS, but I would be more concerned if the welder is spraying the water on the weld and adjacent base metal while the temperature is above 1330 degrees F. If the carbon steel is above the magic temperature of 1330 F, the steel is above the lower temperature of transformation. In other words, it may be partially austenized and it can be quenched to form a hard brittle microstructure. The carbon content and the sum effects of other alloying constituents will determine just how hard the weld and HAZ can be.

If the weld and adjacent base metal had cooled to a temperature below 1330, I would be less concerned. It is still an issue to be addressed because the welder should not be hastening the cooling rates without proper direction from management, preferably someone with a good understanding of how metals respond to heat treatment.  If assisted cooling is required, it should be addressed by the WPS and not instituted by the welder.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 03-16-2012 13:15
I agree with Al and all about the lower transformation temp. No sense in taking the chance of causing embrittlement.
This can be simply controlled by not spraying with water while the steel is bright red in color.
Deliberate heating and cooling of pipe is often done to make corrections in alignment, or heat shrinking as in structural applications.
Cooling one side of a pipe of a pipe at one end will cause the other end to move toward the cooled side considerably.
This is usually done with a spray bottle or even a soaking wet rag.
NOT! recommended for high carbon materials like 4140 or for Chrome Moly.

Tim
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-16-2012 13:36 Edited 03-17-2012 04:08
Heating and cooling cycles have been used to induce thermal stresses that cause the member to move one way or another ans has been used for years to camber beams and girders as well as to flame straighten bent or distorted members. It works without causing metallurgical damage if the carbon steel or high strength low alloy steel members are not heated above the lower temperature of transformation. If the member is quenched and tempered, the temperature must be kept below the tempering temperature used by the manufacturer.

Most steels will experience plastic deformation when the temperature differential is more than about 220 degrees F. In short, the steel can be heated to temperatures well below the tempering temperature or the lower temperature of transformation (LTT) and still be used for the purpose of cambering or straightening members. If the temperature is held below the LTT and cooled with water or other cooling medium, there is no danger of hardening.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-16-2012 21:43
good thread
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-17-2012 01:04
That was kind of what I was getting at. I have never had a situation where I used anything to cool a weld faster. It goes against the grain with me. If anything, I would slow the cooling process as much as possible, to allow proper relief to the weld and base material.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / spraying water on carbon steel welds

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