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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Blast Door
- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-29-2012 18:26
Ok folks. Got a call the other day. At an emergency center and they have a blast door. The exterior just has a handle welded to the outside. It's just a pull handle, nothing more. They said somebody came out a few years ago to weld the handle back on and the guy said it looked horrible. I went out today to check it out because I am assuming that a blast door will not be your standard A36 type of material.

I saw the old handle(now being used as a door stop) and I can't understand how the handle held as long as it did. It had one spot where I could see penetration into the 1/4" unknown plate on the outside of the door. The penetration was about the size of a pencil lead!! The rest looked like it just sat on top of the unknown plate. Told them I'm thinking it must be something harder considering the name "blast door". It appears somebody tried to drill thru it so they could bolt it. The lady outside smoking a cig said that the guy burned up several drill bits and merely scratched the surface. There was no name or tag on the door for who built it so I could call and say, "what is it".

I don't know what the other fella was using, 110v home store welder or what but from the looks of the welds that stuck to the handle I'd say it was at least stick. I've found some companies online that build/sell blast doors and thought about calling them and asking what they would use on the front so I can figure out what type of rod I might used to weld this on. Not as much the rod but what is going to stick this handle to the door so I'm not the next guy that some other welder is thinking about in the future because the handle fell off again!!

Anybody have any experience with blast doors? It's a standard 36" wide door but about 1-1/2-2" thick. The outside is plated, 1/4" plate attached to the inner door which almost looks like a box or pan where the interior latching components would have space and then whatever this door is filled with. Guy said the door weighs like 600lbs, just took his word on it as I was not gonna try and take it off.

Just looking for some info, thoughts on what it might be. The spot where the handle is does not have a lot of rust, still really clean for the most part except where it was welded then it's just a bit of rust but just surface if that. Any ideas, info would be helpful!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-29-2012 19:49
If the Emergency Center has the original purchase order, it would list the name of the manufacturer. If that information is available, by all means, contact them to ask what type of steel was used. If the manufacturer is not known, approach the problem as if it were armor plate and use low hydrogen welding practices and 70 ksi filler metal.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-29-2012 22:50
AL beat me to the punch again.  Probably just an AR plate veneer.
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 03-29-2012 19:51
You might try going to this site and getting the mil-specs for welding to armor plate.

http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/all.mpl
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-29-2012 20:28
Try their business office to see if they have any records/receipts from the original installation.
If that research fails to give a manufacturer with material composition, then perform a spark test (on the door and handle), make your best guestimate and go from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 03-29-2012 21:33
IF it is AR Plate or possibly T-1. Try using a 120-18. Pre-heat to 450 and then postheat to cool it down. I would be willing to bet that will cover whatever it is made of and it will not hurt if it is a lessor material. A typical "Blast Door" or an "Explosion Door" is simply AR plate. It is alo required to have Heavy Chains welded on the Hinge Points.  Hopefully, that will keep the door from being Air Borne if there is an Explosion. I have welded several of these over the years. Mostly in Refinery settings around the Gulf Coast.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-30-2012 03:35
Why would you use 120 thousand LH on a door handle? Just curious.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-30-2012 03:53
We are probably thinking along the same lines of thought SD.

The 70 ksi filler metal would be more than sufficient to secure the door pull and it would be more ductile than the higher strength filler metal and it would be more resistant to cracking than a high strength filler metal. The question is, "Do you really need to match the strength of the blast door?"

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-30-2012 11:30
Yeah, probably going overboard for a door handle, more curious than really required. Saw the dirt dobber welds on the first handle and was wanting to get an idea on what I was dealing with. Figure the first guy probably didn't have a clue and called himself "a welder" you know.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 03-30-2012 11:53
so it would be compatible with the base material
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 04-01-2012 02:21
7018 is compatible with any AR plate I have ever seen, you just will not likely match tensile or yield of the base metal.  It is a door handle.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 04-01-2012 11:13 Edited 04-01-2012 13:46
How can it be compatible if it does not match or exceed the  yeild and tensile of the base ? I simply gave the Procedures set forth by the Phd Engineer that we use. However, I am sure there are better ways to do it.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 04-01-2012 13:13
First of all, why are you saying it's 120 in the first place?:cool:
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 04-01-2012 13:42
I never said it was for sure 120. I said if you use 120-18 with preheat and post heat, it should cover WHATEVER the base metal is.

Quote: Try using a 120-18. Pre-heat to 450 and then postheat to cool it down. I would be willing to bet that will cover whatever it is made of and it will not hurt if it is a lessor material
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 03-30-2012 00:48
These two links might help out.  They cover AR plate and Armor Plate

http://www.leecosteel.com/products/armor-ballistic-plate.html

http://www.leecosteel.com/products/abrasion-resistant-steel-plate.html
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-30-2012 10:30
We have just subbed out two "blast doors" to a specialtly fabricator who specialiazes in these and I was onsite at their facility monitoring the welding of them.
Ours were made out of regular A36 plate up to 3" thick.  The reason being so that it can deflect and give during an event.  If the material was super hard and resistant it might break away at the the walls where the frame meets the concrete.  Of course this was all engineered into the panel and frame.
Just another opinion.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-30-2012 12:24
The only problem with that eekpod is the drill marks where somebody attempted to drill it and the eye witness who said the guy was dropping burned up drill bits like hot coals!! LOL!!

I guess my issue is I want it welded on so it don't crack and don't pull off because I didn't know what I was doing. I like to fix it and be done with it, even a simple pull handle. Last guy attempted and now looks like a boob and lost all credibility with these folks. My phone number has been making it's way around this circle one well done job after another and my number get's passed to the next guy for more work. Figure I need to keep up the good work and keep my number cycling around.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-30-2012 13:21
Nothing wrong with trying to do the right thing, good luck.
Just wanted to give you a little advice on what I have dealt with.
Good luck
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-01-2012 22:51
No problem eekpod, appreciate the input.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-30-2012 14:33 Edited 03-30-2012 14:42
If you really worry about that material, (which I think you shouldn't), preheat it to 350 or 400 degrees with a rose bud, then nail it. You could even post heat it if it made you feel better. But I don't think you need to.

Do you know how many times I have come along after another welder and been simply amazed at tha scabby work? Just a couple months ago I was clocked by an I-beam that popped off of a water tank. I was using gravity to lever the skid away from the tank as I zipped the existing welds off the tank. The last 2 , (thats right I said TWO), welds were basically slag with paint. The I-beam popped off and pinned me with my torch burning 70 pounds of fuel next to my face, as blood trickled into my eyes and ear. I ended up just fine after some super glue and some tlc by a young lady that also spent the night. But you get my point.

Grab a handful of rod and stick that thing back on. You will know right away what you are dealing with. You won't have to wait for it to pop off or crack if it is some exotic iron. It will most likely happen right as you are welding it, or shortly after.

I don't agree with Cactus. You don't engineer blast doors that are that far beyond the integrity of the walls it's attached to. What would be the point of that?

Another thing you could do is put a 6"x6" A36 plate on the door so you could get more surface area welded pre and post heat, (with plug welds throughout), then weld your handle on it. That's enough weld to keep it on no matter what.

Or build a new handle with more surface area, but that may raise some eyebrows of the people that sign your check.
Parent - - By weldwade (***) Date 03-30-2012 18:45
Shawn, I work with wear plate in many different forms. AR plate being one of them. I have welded thousands of pounds of rod and wire on AR. I weld lifting eyes on with 7018 and no pre heat all the time on pieces that could crush that blast door like a soda can. You don't need pre heat to weld a handle to this door. It would probably only warp the door anyway. Clean it up and put a nice bead with 7018 and charge them accordingly.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 03-30-2012 20:17
Agreed with weldwade, AR plate (if your blast door is AR) welds pretty easily. It has high ductility so pre and post heat is generally not required on thin stuff.
You just have to watch the puddle pretty closely in order to ensure penetration as it transfers heat in a weird way some times.
That's probably why the original weld on that handle was so bad. You have to carefully work the puddle in order to tie in.

Tim
Parent - - By Sberry (***) Date 03-31-2012 00:30
Weld it on, hit with hammer, if it falls off it aint any good.
Parent - - By pipehead (***) Date 03-31-2012 01:42
Just my two cents But your all thinking to much throw a little preheat to it nail it with some low-hi and send the bill! chances are the if his welds were that bad the next drilling it had cheap bits and it is already hard from previous welds.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 04-01-2012 13:17
:lol:
Parent - - By KFab (**) Date 04-01-2012 04:39
Hi Cumminsguy 71

i can offer some small advice.  I do extensive work on Armor and can hint any of the above welding methods would be just fine. Depending on the type of armor hardox, armox or weldox or what ever its made from i would just drill new bolt holes and fab a new handle with a cover plate that address the issues with old holes or patch them with a small plate with rounded edges.  If you get cracking it can be quite serious. You would be amazed how easily armored steel can crack.   Armor steals hold lots of magnetism you can easly see cracks without a yoke just hit it with some powder  the following day.  Yes you can drill it make sure you use a mag drill and  carbide bits.  As an alternative i would just use standard carbon as armored steal cost too much and isnt really made for blast deflection but rather used for small arms fire only. iam no expert on blast doors but i do know some doors are filled with concrete.   Good luck
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-01-2012 13:02
Thanks for the input KFab, second guy for the Armox I have heard. Checked that stuff out online, pretty cool products!
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 04-01-2012 13:44
John
When are you coming back ? Call me ASAP when you get here. Or Email me.
Parent - By KFab (**) Date 04-02-2012 02:44
Few months out
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 03-31-2012 03:01
I wouldnt give the drill comment too much merit. Ive seen lots of people suck at drilling. I watched a guy drill through 1/8 aluminum and a truck bed rail for 10 mins today. ONE 1/4 hole. Grab some 7018's and melt that thing back on. If it falls off I'll give you some 120's to repair it with. That wont happen though.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-31-2012 23:26
Hahaha!!! I feel for you man!! 10 minutes!!
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 04-01-2012 08:21
....... I have found this thread to be highly entertaining.
Parent - By Oneatatime (**) Date 04-01-2012 08:26
The drill was spinning backwards.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-01-2012 14:27
What's all this talk about armor plate?

I think we need to think about what "type" of blast door we are talking about.

If the blast door is the type designed to keep an army of angry post apocolypitic robots at bay... Than yes  prolly it's armox.

If however, it is a type traditional blast door, who's purpose is to give way during a blast so that the wall it is attached to does not give way... Than why would it be made out of armor plate for Jimminey Criticket's sake?

Most blast doors are made to let stuff out, rather than be impenatrable.
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 04-01-2012 16:44
Ok I cant resist jumping in...

Pop two holes in the plate with your torch... If they are slightly big the bolt plate will cover it If they are slightly too small hit it with a bur bit....!!!!

If they are WAY too big.... Weld the handle to a mild steel plate.. Round the corners and make it look sharp... Weld two studs to the back of the plate and stick them through your holes... Put the nuts on the back and away you go..  This way there will be no bolt heads showing and you are headed down the road...

  That's just my two cents worth..!!
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 04-01-2012 17:12
I think the obvious solution everyone has been ignoring is right here ... http://tinyurl.com/7oml5l6   :grin:
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-01-2012 22:44
Hahaha!!!! Nice!!! LOL!!!
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 04-03-2012 19:11
Actually, the obvious solution to me, would be:
http://tinyurl.com/d6sg8w3
Parent - By mechan (**) Date 04-03-2012 23:16
That is a very good point. Maybe they should consider this for all fastener repairs on ferrous metals because it would save tons of money in labor. Not to mention the hours of fun when you are trapped inside the bomb shelter post SHTF scenario playing with the magnet!
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-01-2012 22:44 Edited 04-01-2012 22:49
Door is 3" thick! :lol: It might be hollow inside. I've got what I need and sometime this week will try and get out and plug it in place. As one guy said I'll know how it's penetrating right off. Good learning experience checking out blast doors online and other things that are related, good brain food!!

Gotta say, quite the debate for a blast door!!!!
Parent - - By 65 Pipeliner (**) Date 04-02-2012 13:59
Is this for one of the doomsday preppers we see on t.v.?  :eek:

Chris
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-03-2012 01:36
No, it's an emergency center. Superman came by and pulled the handle off....or wait was it one of the Three Stooges that welded it on??
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 04-03-2012 07:34
I will call superman up and let him know he needs to pull that handle off.   Now are you going to weld it on?
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-04-2012 01:53
That or some wise a$s that figures out it is a magnet, prys it off with a screwdriver and keeps it.
Parent - By mechan (**) Date 04-04-2012 02:17
How does someone work into that facet of the crime world? Stealing the alphabet letters off from their mother's fridge as a kid and pawning them for Bazooka bubble gum? Would explain why I always thought Bazooka Joe looked like a shady character.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Blast Door

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