Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
So what' your opinion. When installing a handrail in concrete, aggragate which do you think is stronger? Core drill and anchor with concrete or use a plate on the bottom of the post and use concrete anchors?
I've seen so many concrete anchors that have worked loose, pulling, tugging on a handrail day in and out and bolts back out, anchor holes get bigger and then your rail is loose. Now granted, I have seen handrail posts that were not properly drained come loose. In terms of strength though? Opinions?
I have dont a million anchors and they are quick and easy most of the time. Of the few cores that I have done they are a pain in the arse.
I do think the core is a lot stronger just not worth the time to do most of the time.
The Core is, without a doubt, Stronger. However as has already been said, It's not Cost effective. If you bid to Core Drill the Post, you will lose at least 50% of the Bids you submit. A Cored job cost will NEVER compete with Anchor job cost. You will, at the very least, DOUBLE your time on the job
By strother 
Date 06-27-2012 00:37
Edited 06-27-2012 01:10
Core is stronger and most of the commercial railings I've done require core drilling . I've got to buy a core drill. The guy who has been drilling for me is going out of business.
If you use plates, you can modify, uninstall, or repair the railing pretty easy at any time.
Yeah, thats a good point Sourdough. I got a call from a client about 2 weeks ago. She said there's something wrong with my powder coating. I went out and it was peeling off like a banana. It was a place near the house I used, a machine shop that dabbles in powder coating. The powder was never stuck as it had rust build up underneath everything we peeled off.
Anyhow, hammer drill and 1 hour later we got the rail out and off to the reliable powder coater in Nashville.
I did a lot of railing and other specialty thingys for those exsorbantly wealthy people in Aspen, (Rifle is an hr and a half drive away), and there is one thing I know about rich people; once you are finished with a job, they will change their minds completely.
I've finished a lot of railing, only to uninstall it and start a totally different one.
I use plates, for ease of removal later if needed, and epoxy 3/8 or 1/2 all thread into the holes. The size depends on the amount of use the rail will see. This has worked great for me so far. I did use lag shields and lag bolts on one the other day, but these two sections were between stone pillars and the house. They had a snug fit to start with, so I am not worried about them coming loose. These two sections are more cosmetic than anything, to finish out the look, if that makes sense. I started using epoxy after seeing broken concrete from expanding anchors used too close to the edge. Just put duct tape over the hole, to prevent a mess on the concrete, and make sure the epoxy comes to the top of the hole with the all thread in it, to keep water out, especially in freezing climates.
Chris
Core drilling is better when applicable, but in the same way people dont want to pay for hand forged rails they dont want to shell out for core drilled either.
I have done A BUNCH of both. For ease of installation i like using wedge anchors and capping over the top of the baseplate's with a shoe thats slid over the baseplate before welding.
That's probably why I'm not covered up in residential handrail right now. Bid a butt load of jobs and all core drilled, designed in house, etc., etc., and don't get calls back. Seems I'm a bit higher doing all this stuff that will last a LONG time. Think I've bid about 10 jobs in the last few months and landed two of them. Could be in part that most folks have no idea how much "custom" costs when comparing to Home Depot handrail, but I think it's just me and my OCD. Been thinking I need to have a "basic" thrown together will fall apart piece of cr_p I can sell. Unfortunately with how I am I will tell the potential client, this is a thrown together, cheap rail that will likely fall apart and that is where you find the problem. They want it to last a long time but they don't want to pay for it.
I've battled the same thing here, Shawn. I won't lower my prices unless we're comparing apples to apples. Home Depot junk and my stuff aren't anywhere close. I have lost some bigger jobs because of price, but it's hard to compete with $15.00 a foot junk. This last project I did required 4 trips to the house to get fit right and installed. But it has led to more work being bid.
Chris
Yeah, there are still folks out there that want it done right. The handrail I have getting powdered now is 100% solid and welds all ground down, probably NOMMA #1 or #2 finish, finished assembly onsite to get fit and angles right. Told her I could lower the price by using tube and lighter stuff and she said, "no, I want just what you described". This house looks like it was part of early Virginia so we did something reminissant of those times, simple, thin. I really enjoy working with folks like this, that want top notch work and not just a "handrail" for general use.
Apples to apples, I've told to possible clients that and they still don't call, some just want it cheap. Like guys have said on here, there are guys out there to fill every gap in the client world!
Shawn, I've probably said this before but thats why I rarely do residential rails. Its just not worth the time you spend pricing those jobs when you only get 10% of the jobs you bid . As a rule I only do commercial railings. Every once in a while I'll make an exception for special circumstances.
Cumminsguy-
It's a good question but the answer is a little more involved than simple preference or efficiency. Anchorage on handrails is an engineering question that requires calculations based on loading requirements. Those calcs take into consideration, weight of rails, height of rails, load resisting requirements, anchoring base material [concrete, wood deck, steel plate, critical edge distance and others]. IBC requirements use a different loading factor than AASHTO which adds 200# to the loading criteria. Most of the handrail I do is on public works projects where the anchorage is defined by engineers in the contract drawings, sometimes incorrectly if you can believe it, and some projects have required me to get the anchorages engineered as part of my scope of work because the handrail design was provided by an architect without an engineering backround where the engineers for the public agency wouldn't go to bat to provide the structural calculations at their own risk which then became my responsibility. Either way, if the anchorages aren't called out by an engineer and you decide how to anchor those rails, you are assuming a liablity or warranty issue at best. I'm not being Chicken Little here and don't lose sleep over it but I keep my bases covered. Handrail is currently 95% of my business and I have a little over 2800 LF of various handrails to get built and installed. It's a mixed blessing. Of those projects all are either core drilled or sleeved in concrete and grouted. I have abandoned using wedge anchors or driven anchor bolts long ago due to their loosing and failure rate. However, if you use an epoxy held anchor there is an inspection requirement [on public projects] that needs to be met including your drilling, cleaning, epoxy manufacturer, bolt type, hole fill and it becomes your anchoring procedure that needs to be witnessed by an inspector and approved. I'm not making this stuff up. To take it a step further, recent changes in the construction industry have merged the primary testing agencies so that almost all of the available anchorages including bolts, epoxy, grouts and anything being used for anchorage no longer have an IBC report that engineers can use to make the neccessary calculations, which has led to a ridiculous situation wherein materials we have used for years are no longer acceptable and the manufacturers of those anchoring products are stuck in long lines waiting for the new testing agency to get to their products and subject them to the same tests they have already passed so the can get a new IBC report so that engineers can now use that report to do their calculations. Ask me how I know. I'm so embroiled in the Handrail Wars I should ship out as a handrail mercanary. I'll try to post a picture of a rail system I did two years ago on a public works job [never posted a pic before so cut me some slack on limited computer skill]. The job required I proved engineered calcs for the anchorages. There were approximately 2600 1/2" X 6" epoxied anchor bolts called out by my engineer, the calculation cost $1000.00, the project was a hard money bid, I only provided the rail, the contractor had his guys do the install [which I din't mind giving up although I gave him a price for the install as well] I turned a reasonable profit on the project. It was during this job where I learned a little bit about anchoring issues and the decisions they require. BTW, I disagree with the opinion regarding core drillin being not cost effective. At 35-40 bucks a hole, having a subcontractor concrete company do my coring I still bid competitively, but I'm considering purchasing a coring unit to keep that money for myself. I see them used going for about $500.00 and think it would pay for itself in one job. Bottom line, unless the railing is very lightweight, the base material is relatively new and very strong there is no good reason I would ever use driven anchors, even on an unispected project I would opt for epoxy held anchors or core drilled.
I'm surprised that there's so much being said in favor of epoxy.
Threaded anchors require a pre-load to stay tight, and with epoxy's nature to creep, I would expect the nuts to loosen over time. Have you seen this in the field?
Rlitman,
My furthest back epoxy job is almost 5 years old. So far, knock on wood, I have not had any problems. One of my customers would have let me know 3 seconds after it came loose
. My main reason for switching to epoxy instead of lag shields or wedge type anchors was proximity to the edge of concrete and the risk of breaking it out. And also because, as luck usually goes, someone else has already installed something else there and the holes almost never line up with the new stuff. Out in the middle of a pad or even 8 or 9 inches in, I will use wedge lock anchors almost all the time.
Chris
Makes perfect sense, considering that the majority of railings are installed pretty close to the edge of the concrete. :)
I too would be afraid of a wedge bolt near an edge. Anyway, adhesive anchors have much more pullout resistance to dynamic loads than wedge anchors (shields don't even come close, but I use them in low PSI materials such as brick or mortar that don't work well with wedges).
Perhaps if you re-torqued the nuts with a torque wrench you would see the difference, but they don't get loose enough to be actually "loose", just lose some of the pre-load from tightening. I'm sure there's more than enough overdesign to compensate for this though.
I know that creep is a big issue with overhead anchors, I guess it isn't so much with railings.
The NTSB report on the creep induced collapse at the "Big Dig" came out in 2007, so your oldest job would have been made with epoxy anchors before manufacturers reformulated their epoxy to reduce creep, so if you haven't had an issue, I guess it really isn't a problem as adhesives have only improved since then.
I prefer core drilling. It will still look nice well after I'm gone.
By core drilling, you guys are referring to drilling a (for argument's sake) 2.5" hole and putting a 1.5" post in it and filling the rest with concrete?
Chris
Yeah, drilling big holes in the base is correct Pipeliner.
Personally, I use a Milwaukee Core Drill unit with attached water for cooling, a vaccum pump that holds if fast to the surface (if it is smooth enough) and has two speeds. We drill a hole in the concrete about the size you state, sometimes larger if using large posts. We then set the posts with Rockite. Not concrete. Rockite sets faster, stronger, and doesn't shrink. What you have to watch is that it will flow UP into the post, unless you cap the bottom of the post, leaving your finish below grade. This gives moisture a place to settle and causes faster rusting of the post.
I do normally prefer base plates on the posts and use the roto hammer to set lead anchors and then use lag bolts to mount. It does make the repair/replacement problem easier if ever needed.
Have a Great Day, Brent
What epoxies have You had creep issues with?
Good post yojimbo! We have used Hilti epoxy system once on a railing in red brick. An aftermarket aluminum thing bought by a fence company and the client did not like something on it and I had to weld it. We had to remove it and get it re powder coated. We used the Hilti epoxy with the screen, all thread. Pretty slick stuff! Expensive as all get out though!
I used to rent a core drill and bit everytime I needed it. Was not bad, $75 a day but it was a pain having to go get it before the job, drop it off after the job. I was looking on Craigslist one day and ran across a guy selling a Weka hand held, three speed core drill with a 3", 4" and 6" bit with the 4" being brand new, not even a scratch on it. Picked it all up for $500!! I was going to haggle but plugged it in and ran it and felt like I was already stealing it! So, gave him $500 with ease. I now have 2.5", 3", 3.5", 4" and 6" bits. Depending on the age, kind of base I can shoot holes in regular concrete in no time.
I just don't trust the anchors much, especially if I bolt an entire railing in. A lot of perspective clients I get are aging, needing handrail and WILL put the railing to the test and an elderly person pulling on the railing day in and day out seems to me could loosen a mechanically anchored rail.
Can't figure out how to attach a picture. Followed instructions in help/no joy. Suggestions?
Upload the picture to a place that hosts pictures. I use
Imageshack for this. Once uploaded, copy the "forum" link into your post. It'll start with [URL= and go from there. Hit the preview button and you should see a small version of your picture. If you click on that small version, it'll take you to Imageshacks site and you'll see the full size version.
BTW, this is a really informative thread. I've never played in the handrail world, so it's interesting to read about the details that go into it.
By Cumminsguy71 
Date 06-28-2012 15:53
Edited 06-28-2012 15:58
After you type something to say, hit "Post".
When it comes up, changes screen and shows your post there will be.....
Reply Edit Delete Attach
Click Attach and it will open another window where you can then click browse, search your files for the image then hit open. There is a little button on that page that says "attach as JPG" I believe is what it says. If you click this it will put the picture in your post, if you don't click(check) it then it will just be an attachment that you'll have to click.
Sometimes the pictures are to large, if you have windows you should have a Paint program. You can resize the image in there pretty easily.
Hope this helps.
Shawn
Correction to former post: It's an ICC report the engineers use to do loading calcuations, anchorage manufacturers provide this test report with their products. Most manufacturers website- Powers for example- lets you pull up one of their products and it will let you know if it has an ICC report. It's a fairly absurd situation in that many manufacturers have had to pull products off the market that have been used for years because they are still years away from getting a new ICC test report, this includes Simpson and Hilti. Trying to upload some pictures from an anchored railing that used 2600 1/2" X 6" galvanized bolts and epoxy. The railing panels weighed about 350# each, 42" tall, fabricated steel, hot dipped galvanized with an IPE Brazillian Hardwood Caprail 5/4 X 6" treated with Pennifin Oil. The 316 Stainless cabling and hardware came from Wagner Co. 1000 LF cabled railing and 110LF wire mesh rail.
Yeaaaa, resized the pics in paint to 1.5 mb, told too big or corrupeted. I hate computers.
Try Irfanview for resizing pics...its easy and free. I can take huge (big mega pix) pics with the camera and resize them for emailing in a blink of an eye.
http://www.irfanview.com/
My paint that came with the computer I can resize in pixels or percentage, I do it in pixels. Seems I set the horizontal around 1000 pixels and it gets a good size picture on here without being so huge that you have to move the screen to see it all.
I been contemplating putting together an OVER the top option for ornamentals. Tig welded high end bolsters ground and polished handrails with shoes and caps.
Then a mig welded but nicely sanded and touched up rail.
Then finally some of the junk azz home depot/welded in your driveway with a sp-125 and a cheep generator rail.
Just to let people see what their getting.
I'm working on the same idea for a display in a mom and pop lumber yard near here. I'm taking a section of the cookie cutter junk and a section of my railing for a side to side comparison. I'm also cutting cross sectional views so people can actually see what they are getting. I'm hoping it will help business.
Chris
Dualie and Chris, those are good ideas. Maybe something you can carry with you as a demo when visiting the client? In the end though I hope it helps out. I tell them and explain in great detail and still nothing, think for most it's just cost.
I've kinda changed up a bit. I'll outright ask them what they are thinking about cost, rough number and if they throw out some $30/foot thing I can just walk away without even working my pencil.
Putting it in the mom and pop store though you'll catch a lot of foot traffic and the people who are looking for quality. Good luck to both of you guys!
Thanks Cumminsguy, finally figured out the resizing thing. I think. If these attach and are correctly sized for viewing this is the project I learned more about the engineering requirements for anchors than I ever cared to. Approximately 2600 embeds, 1/2' X 6" epoxy embed, fabricator provided, contractor installed. Took 3 guys and a superintendant about 2 1/2 weeks to get them in. The municipality wanted these to be removable so when that river floods, which was the whole point of the project- the wall on the left is the flood protection wall- these railing could be removed to prevent damage to them. Right. The city of Mt. Vernon will be buying new ones, should these ever get ripped up by floating log snags cause the municipal workers ain't never gonna get them out in time.
What did You use to tension and fasten the cable infill on those jobs?
Dave- I used Wagner Co. cable and hardware, all 316 SS. The hardware is called invisiware with the threads contained inside threaded sleeves. Their website shows the products and how they work. I had the cable ordered cut to length and the threaded studs and end stops swaged on at the factory. They sell and rent the equipment to do that but I decided factory produced was more cost effective for me. The cable gets threaded through the holes and tightened with a wratcheted [sic] allen wrench. I purchased a tension guage from them but after tightening a few cables you get a good idea of how tight to go just by feel of the cable. It's a good bit of tension around 200# each which is accumulative which dictated using the 2 X 2 X 1/4 wall tubing instead of the angle called out on contract drawings which would have deflected under this load. The clean appearance of the hardware and tightening bolt is viewable in the second picture of the individual cable panel.
One of My friends wanted a railing with cable infill for His deck. He thought the purpose made hardware was too expensive.
He wanted Me to come up with a cheap alternative, but there is no workable thing that looks good enough-even for Him.
He went with an altogether different non code compliant railing built by the contractor that was rebuilding the deck.
Dave- Cable railing isn't cheap for sure. Using 7 cables and the top midrail for infill on this 42" railing works out to just over $13 LF which included the hardware and factory produced cut lengths and termination swagging. The price per foot on the cable was actually cheaper [3/16. 19 strand] from Wagner than local cable suppliers by a large margin. I looked at several cable railing manufacturers and decided on Wagners products because I think their hardware is the cleanest looking- I really don't like the chunky looking "acorn" nuts or exposed long threaded sleeves of some of the other producers. I can't imagine fabricating any decent looking hardware at a competitive price. They are a very responsive manufacturer to work with and have a high end line of products with good support. I will be using their railing splice locks on two other rail jobs this year.
so are they going to send some one out there to remove all 1200+ feet of rail every time the flood warnings kick in?
Duallie- Well that was the original option they wanted, but I think they came to the conclusion after it was installed that it would be more cost effective to replace any damaged railing rather than wrestling these out and getting them back in.
Looks good yojimbo!! Wagner has some great stuff!
This sure is a good Post with very good information. Thanks for all the good info.
Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill
