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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Drug test
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-23-2012 21:12
If a urine test is called out of parameter for temperature does the company have to allow the person
in question  a retest or can thery just call  it  a failed test and terminate the worker. seems to me that
could be used to terminate an unwanted worker . they don't have to say its tested pos for any thing
pay for any labwork. i thought the worker had certain rights when it came to challenge results.
Parent - By TAC (*) Date 10-23-2012 21:20 Edited 10-23-2012 21:24
Which code are you working under? Is the urine temperature an essential variable?

If so, you need to write a new urination procedure specification and qualify it by testing.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 10-23-2012 21:43 Edited 10-23-2012 22:26
The sad news is that with the new "Employment at Will" contracts, any company can fire any employee at any time for any reason or for no reason at all.  If they don't like the color of your shirt they can fire you.  And then YOU have to deal with the consequences of the scar on the employment history.  All my recent jobs made me sign these agreements.  It was their way or the highway.

It is not a good thing.  But, conservatives defend it by saying it works in favor of the worker because they can quit at any time for any reason if they get a better offer.  LOL
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 10-23-2012 22:26
I was going to say... if an employer wanted to fire a guy, why would they go through all that rather than just firing him?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-23-2012 22:32
Joe,
It is viewed as adulteration of the sample if the liquid crystal indicates out of temperature range. Otherwise, they're saying you were not smart enough to properly apply a handwarmer packet to your 10 year old neighbor kid's ziplock baggie full of whizz. It can be too hot or too cold.
Other kick out is if it is not yellow enough, they claim you over hydrated yourself to (once again) adulterate the sample. Even though there is no color control strip on the sample cup, they take the experience of the examiner... I wonder if they have to have a color perception test like I have to for the CWI?

I tell all my friends....
Stay away from Cheech and Chong's Bong, leave the Columbian marching powder and hillbilly fairy dusts alone......
Seriously, that pain pill prescription you got 2 years ago from the Doctor, but decided to hang on to the last 5 or so, and need on rare occasion for some old recurrent war wounds can get you in a bind with the inquisitor also. Yes even your own (out of date) script can get you busted and in the company's view, you are just as evil as the Meth-head they fired last week.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 10-23-2012 22:54
In the Army I had the honor of holding an addtional duty as the designated urinalysis supervisor for one unit I was assigned to.

No questions about legitimacy there.  You had to watch the urine stream from one end to the other as it went from soldier to cup.  What a job.  :eek:

One place I had to wiz at even had viewing window at crotch level in front of the testee (no pun) so the viewer had splash protection.  Hell for those with stage fright.

Apologies to Joe for being off topic.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-23-2012 23:09
Blaster,
Man! you must have really pi**ed someone (Pun intended?) off to get that duty.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-23-2012 23:33
i don't agree with the fact that if you test positive you get a chance at appeal t show a prescription
but if the test is a little cold based on one persons observation of a two dollar test kit
that was taken from  an outhouse ****ter in 40 deg weather. an additional test was administered witnessed
by company but now they are refusng to test the second sample they claim due to cost. w3ell through that
rejection out the window offering to pay for any and all tests yet they still refuse.
the vreason some companies bjust don't fire someone is there afraid of a discrimination suit for age , color
whatever  this way they can get rid of whoever they want no questions asked with no repercussion
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 10-23-2012 23:45
Wow, that's crazy.  What state is that in?
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-24-2012 01:33
One of My Mom's friends is a nurse at East Penn Manufacturing/ Deka Battery, an area company that employes 6,000 people.

She says aplicants & employees try all kinds of crap to cheat on the pee test.
Parent - - By Oneatatime (**) Date 10-24-2012 01:26
Don't do dope. Don't worry about consequences. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-24-2012 02:39
well what happens when you no longer do dope and the following happens
youve been locked up in a training room for 3 hours of course you had to piss but couldnt leave the
tralier. you finally time to piss but u must wait your turn for the proctor to geti your paperwork in order,
its pouring rain about 49 deg . i m wearing a pair of levis under cardhart bibs i hasve a sweat sh[rt on over the bib straps
a carhart jackei and a safety vest. they are testing us in an outhouse which is extremely cramped. first must go in to
outhouse try and remove jacket sweat shirt try to keep them out of the ****,the bibs down almost ready to pee
but since i had prostrate cancer surgery i can no longer pee staning up as some times you uncontrolably have to ****
this was oned of those pecial  occaions so it took a few minutes to **** after urinating. now ive got to gert all the clothes back
on  i finaly get out hand over my uiine specimine and get told its to cold .now i gert taken into a room abd was accused of cheating
i evplained my situation to management abd they didn't want to hear it. waited 2 hrs same scenario only this
time in a real restroom with management watching me wipe my ass i  was sent to the hotel and told they would contact me
i got a call saying i was being terminated and no futher testing would be fone on either sample.  Rot regulatuons reqire a sample have
temp taken within 4 mins im sure i was doublr that , they are required to send in both samples to the lab  fot aditional testing
they sent none  this is a violation of dot policy and a violation of my rights. they had the nerve to ask for their mobilzation
money back  i sent tyhem abn invoice for my wages,per diem and demobilization  im going to enjoy this
Parent - By Oneatatime (**) Date 10-24-2012 06:03
Its sad i agree, Sometimes things happen to good people for no good reason, Perhaps its time for a lawyer.
What bites me is, the people who are obviously doped out and management lets it walk, Why? Cause they are friends. Ive seen people get hurt over this issue. What i would do is go through the employees manual with a fine tooth comb. Its quite interesting how most companies don't abide by their own employer handbook. In Kansas, no employees handbook, the employer is ****ed. I would contact a lawyer, and find out what the procedures are in writing for the scenario. At this point in time, i doubt you will get the job back, but perhaps its for the best? Perhaps something else far greater is not in sight yet! I personally know its happened this way for me more than once.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-24-2012 07:25
joe pirie ,

Well, if it were me and my reputation on the line, I would do some serious research, Lawyer Up with a high roller.
Above all the BS, your career is on the line as this kind of Krapola could follow you forever with serious ramifications.
I went through something similar, but it came out in my favor. They ran a second sample and I got a 2 week paid vacation waiting for independent laboratory results to come back.
I wish the best for you in the out come of this.

FWIW, Pro Bono only happens in the movies.
Regards,
John
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 10-24-2012 12:18
Joe,
Agree totally with Superflux.
On the forms we have to fill out in Aus / NZ you have to declare if you were on any medication prior to the test.
I declared I had had 3 x codeine based over the counter flu tablets and when I failed the drug test had to wait two weeks before lab results came back saying I was telling the truth. (if I hadn't declared them or had forgotten I had taken them I would have automatically missed the job)
Meanwhile lost two weeks of a four week shutdown - not impressed !!!,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-24-2012 13:49
Oh Crap Joe...sorry to hear about this. Hang in there buddy, I know it doesn't seem fair. Almost sounds like they wanted to thin the herd for some reason. Anyone with any compassion should have allowed a retest, even supervised, if they were worried about tampering...that way once you were able to give the sample you could hand it off to the proctor without having to get off the seat until you were finished. Our sample cups have a thermometer strip glued to the side of the cup, that way they can look quickly before the sample has had time to cool off. Keep your head up.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-24-2012 18:28
As this thread progressed I was thinking that same thought, why couldn't someone have just stood by and let you hand them the cup so you could finish, get all the clothes pulled back together, and exit gracefully.  Then there would be no doubt about the time, temp, etc.

I agree with the thought that they were just going through a weeding process.  And you lost.  Sorry.  Hope it doesn't inconvenience you too much. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-02-2012 19:43
Joe, you sound old enough. Just whip it out right there in front of god and everybody, fill their cup and tell them here's your g-d sample, hot off the presses.
- - By Dualie (***) Date 10-24-2012 00:48
Around here they have gone to urine with a hair sample backup.    If they suspect any foul play with the liquid sample they test the hair.      Even though the hair sample is far more accurate as far as not being able to mask any previous usage.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 10-24-2012 03:32
Guys,
This is a subject that really set's me off so I will try not to make it a rant.
In Australia some of the largest mining companies in the world have some of the strictest drug / alcohol testing regimes in the world.
Only problem is the inconsistencies.
One company uses urine testing in their Coal division and saliva testing in their Iron Ore division while the Aluminium division uses a combination of both.
For those who are not aware urine testing can show THC (marijuana) for up to 3 months previous (dependant on fat content of body) whilst heroin / cocaine etc can be flushed from the body in anything up to 24 hrs (dependant on metabolism and fat content). As most serious druggies have no body fat it will not stay long in their body.
Who would you feel safer working next to - someone who had a puff of a marijuana joint 2 months ago or someone who shot up with heroin 12 hours ago ?
Saliva testing shows up what has been ingested into the body up to 18 hrs prior to the test so it is much fairer way of proving - FITNESS FOR WORK.
Not what you have done 2 months ago in your private life when you were in between jobs but that your body is clean and you are fit for work on that particular day.

I admit to having the occasional puff of marijuana in my younger days but since drug testing came in approx 10 years ago I have given it a miss.
What has really p.ssed me off in the past is working alongside guys I know are "smack freaks" and are regularly using and have got through the test whilst others have been sacked because they had a casual smoke weeks or sometimes months before they were even tested.
Rant over,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 10-24-2012 12:29
I'll do whatever I like. My employer will do whatever he likes. It's an old fashioned agreement, I know, but it's working for us.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-24-2012 13:30
Joe,
My sincere apologies you had to go through all that.  What a shame a person in your situation had to go through to provide a sample and they still don't understand the circumstances.  I'm amazed noone had any compassion for you.  There are always exceptions and this is clearly one.
I have a friend who's had his prostate removed and I'm aware of some of his complications.
It doesn't sound fair, but it's up to you to decide if it's worth fighting.
Good Luck
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-24-2012 21:20
if you read all the posts i made i did give a second test as required by dot under the watchful eye
of the site safety man he came in the stall and watched me pee in the cup **** in the bowl and wipe my ass
temp was fine as wass preliminary test on site, mechanical contractor told weld lab i was working for that
i wasn't gointo work out anrd  was  being removed from the job. no futher testing on my two samples a
violation  of dot regulations iwant to see what that dot paperwork shows. in complete ? rejected due to
cheating. pass test, terminated for other reason like AGE, threw it all in the trash as though it never happene does
ane know a decent labor lawyer ?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-25-2012 00:02
Joe,

You start with the State Department of Labor where this incident occurred, and if you are out of state, file again though your local office. These are usually located in the same building where unemployment claims are filed and Job searches are conducted by those lacking a home/personal computer. Out in this area I believe they are called Work Force Services.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-25-2012 00:21
So, if the legal and claims department determines you have a viable case and they have broken the law... After that is settled, then you grab the law firm of "Dewey Cheat'em and Howe" and they'll be glad to jump all over them for you.
Not worth it to tackle it until the State has advised you of all the infractions. Let them do the leg work. Your tax money paid for them and let the process follow it's course.
Remember though, you are dealing with a government agency and nothing happens fast.
Just initiate the complaint and let the (slooowwwww-a$$ed) machine start rolling.
Good luck to ya Bro. Hopefully this hosing can get a reversal of flow.
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-25-2012 01:44
Thats messed up, I used to worked for TEXTRON MARINE AND LAND SYSTEMS and I seen some crazy **** like this to. They did urine test just to get rid of people while you have some guys who are smoking dope behind the building and they use there fake piss to pass a drug test it just makes no sense and other older guys who don't do anything like that and that are hard workers yet they don't want them anymore because there getting old and will end up costing them more if they get hurt on the job or whatever. It's all about the almighty dollar bill. I wish I could win the lottery and strike it big and go after some of these SOB's.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-26-2012 01:30
well heres my next problem when i hired on with the lab i signed up on a contract basis
not an employee i always go contract if they oiffer it for the tax benefits, so technically i cant go
to tthe labor board as i was not an employee  of the lab or the mechanical contractor . any ideas
thanks   Joe
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-27-2012 13:19
I don't think there's anything you can do now
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-30-2012 12:46
well; well since i started demanding answers about my specimines being  out of compliance
i found out that they did submit the tests to the lab in the beginning i was told they would not be tested
to save money. doing a little research i found out that by law they have to test the samples unless they catch you red hande
altering the sample . i sent a copy of the dot regulations to the contractorand they had violated mynrights buy not testing my samples
i got told we'll look into it. the same day i got another call saying that they were mistaking about not testing their samples and they were
at the lab and gave me a # to call spoke to the doctor nand he says ive got bad news you tested positive for amphetimines. i said no dr thats
even better because it shows my adhd medication in the urine futher goes to show it was my piss. faxed him off a copy of the script and im good
to find work . So far the contractor has agreed to pay for my mobilizatuion & demobilization but im thinking i should be compensated for
loss of earnings
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-30-2012 13:18
On the surface of it I would agree.

The question is, how far do you want to push it if you now have and want the job?

Congrats on getting cleared though.  That will be good news for your reputation and work committment.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 10-30-2012 14:43
Joe, I've been watchin' this post from the beginning,glad you got it straightened out. Although I never failed a test (cause I'm clean) I always have a small worry about this cause people screw up !!!!!! When I was 19 back in the early 80's , I got questioned about a pre-employment test(showed a positive, was taking an over the counter allergy pill) Everything turned out OK but who knows what would of happened if I didn't pass because of this??????:confused::confused::confused: Back then these tests were in there infancy and I knew NOTHING about them.......  Now it seems like this is the only lottery/drawing I win !!!!!!!:roll::roll::roll: (need to stay in compliance w/DOT for CDL license and API 1104 cert.):neutral::neutral: From Pittsburgh: Home of dem' Stiilers!!!!!
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 10-31-2012 11:24
Talk to a lawyer. You should have grounds for a lawsuit against who ever was administering the drug test. Based on what you have said here, they were NOT doing the test properly.
They should be taught a lesson.
I am a big believer in drug testing, but if they do it wrong and nail a clean person, they may be missing a lot of dirty ones.
- - By Sberry (***) Date 10-31-2012 01:07
A big thing that has cleaned up safety is reducing drinking, man I remember the days, whole gangs would go to bar at lunches,, smokes and beer common. I wouldn't want to work today with guys blasted off their rockers but some of the best welders, equipment operators, mechanics I know are weed burners. About 90% of it is smoke its own self. I seen an outfit here who really went to town on the pee test, cost them their best workers. Ranks right up there with iso9000. I am way more interested if a guy puts the right bushing in an alternator than if he smokes. Hard core users another matter, hard to keep up a big blow habit with an honest job.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-31-2012 05:32
Thinking back on friends & people I new socially, some would drink , smoke or both 'till they were stupid or worse, while others knew when to say when, so to speak, and could still function, as they were only a little under the influence.

These were mostly NOT people I worked with, most of those had the sense to party on thier own time. Some came in hung over, I don't recall any coming in majorly drunk or stoned, but yes there were a few who had some beer at the pizza joint they ate at, and a few [some of the same few] burned a J where they THOUGHT nobody could see them.

Of course this was all before drug testing was common, and some of the above was at a smaller shop where it wasn't done at all.
Parent - - By Sberry (***) Date 10-31-2012 15:33 Edited 10-31-2012 16:39
I had maybe 50 jobs in 15 yrs in the construction industry, starting around 78 or 79, I was a maniac anyway and I was probably low on the scale especially on the drug end. Even our business agents were near infamous in some cases. If anyone got tired of it they would lay you off. Over that period I only worked in my own local a handful, maybe 10 or a dozen times over the first 10 yrs. I really liked booming better and at the end I kind of drag ass but there were a few experiences to see some in action.

The work in my own local was rather generic at the time and a guy could shine but not as well as being from out of town where a guy could hunt down a job where the manpower demands had something special. I was a good lo-hi welder and innershield come in to play, lo hi on speed man. Well I was always the skinny guy among the apes, ha I remember one time some **** hit the fan, about similar to what you see on the TV with that crane in NY, it didn'tnt have the final outcome,,, only by an inch though so nobodydy knows,,,, but we had to secure some stuff with heavy cable and clips, I did the install with a couple helpers on my point and one of the pet apes,,, a really great guy,,  comes over and says,,, Vern said I got to check make sure the clamps are tight, he says, orders I got to check. After I tell him,,, don't forget to mention to that ornery old fuk they were tight.

The old fart was packin, a double barrel derringer, he was having a survey in general one day, comes over to screw with me, we had extensive critical rigging up and he spots this stinger hanging on a cable, not a good plan was right but it wasn't mine, didn'tidnt set it there, would have moved it if I had seen it. So he walks up, I am on a pic about waist hi off the side of the building, says, if you hit that cable I am going to blow your balls off, one barrel for each. Ha, it was funny, I got off, walked over to my lunch box there, opened it, had a 9mm in it, ha,,, he says,, you not spose to have that,,, I said "like you are" ?  I guess he could see I had a point. There might have even been a vodka bottle in theredon't recall but this was a case where everything was going like it was planned. I kind of did piss him off, wanted to go home for the holidays and really wanted him to lay me off and the way the deal was they really wanted to keep this crew intact in a bad way and I drag up. I worked for him again one other time a year or 2 later on a bridge.

I had a bunch of pictures from these deals, had them in a drawer which went thru a fire, I have been looking for the negatives. On occasion guys would have cameras. Anyway, I remember the fart, I liked him, he was an oreo, all hard on the outside, I saw him threaten this laborer who worked for the general, the guy was a monster, Vern had to look up to him by a foot, just spittin up, I'll throw your balck ass and the N word, would have been right in the guys face but he wasnt tall enough. The guy comes to talk to me later a minute about that ornery old man, I suggested he pick him up and shove him in one of those crappers head first but he says, I was kind of scared to.

A couple of those outfits were real adventures. Very tiring, demanding, overtime, high, cold, windy sometimes all 3 with other maniacs from out of town usually as locals could usually score something easier or steady. I had considered transfering my membership to one local in south Fla, things got balled up with both of them at the time, one robbing and something to do with gunfight in parking lot in the other, ha  Only real reason I didnt is they stopped building real high rise there for a while, the underpinning got so expensive, land a mile away was cheap. They were starting the people mover project, I got side lined, with some broad, had a pocket full, didnt go back, its about the only place I got regret over.

To the orignal point,,, sanity and sobriety was less of an issue then and if they were making money where you were hard to replace they overlooked a lot of stuff way back when,,, past the statute of limitations. ha.

The trades were havens for people with all kinds off issues, heck only about half of them or less would have been employable anywhere else.  That doesnt even scratch the surface of stuff I see company people, bosses, owners do.

One time I end up on the tail end of a big job, got the marching orders to go "round up any loose equipment" we might find, it was a zoo, about 30 outfits going from 60 to zero in about a week. You would be cutting away and wonder wtf, if you didn't have short hose bottles be gone in an instant, small rigging same thing as welding lead. You could cash a big paycheck  at the nearest bar from the place. No ID and the only fee was the few cents change. They never ran out of money, the place would be jammed on those nights for hrs, working 7 10's or more, not many went home for weekends.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-01-2012 00:59
Sberry,
Yeah, there are a lot of big talkers when they have a heater in their pocket or lunch box or just make idle threats.
I don't ever recall myself packing heat on the job, however there was one incident (1983?) where a loud mouth (who reportedly carried on the job) got in my face and made all kinds of threats. I was able to defuse and walk away. Went to parking lot for lunch and retrieved an item from the floor of the truck. When I saw him later, I meekly stuck out my hand and shook his. Apologized for "upsetting him" and told him if there was still a problem, we could always talk about this after work. As we shook hands, I had palmed, and slipped an empty .44 mag shell into his hand. He never came near me the rest of the turnaround.
Back in the early 70's, seemed like half the work force was about 2 states ahead of a warrant. A drug test was to see how good a joint your helper could roll and if it was any good or not... That was then and this is now. Unfortunately, "Demon Dust" and Bath Salts are all the rage, and mellow pot heads are thrown into the same category and are all but nonexistent.
Sad, the 70s and 80s... those were some fun days to be a "Road Whore".
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-01-2012 04:08
In the '80s a helicopter mechanic friend of Mine who is now working in Afganistan was working for a helicopter company from eastern Pa. who I will not name. They were a wild bunch, and when out of country, even more so.

In His present job working for Govt. contractors, they are all on a pretty tight leash, drug tests, no drinking, no guns, no past or present legal issues, overdue child support included. These contractors don't want any problems.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 11-01-2012 06:23
DaveBoyer,

Well Dave, there are a lot of things that go on in a War zone... and...
There are real clever ways for those who are unscrupulous to get into Afghanistan and make a lot of money, and get away with things.
I'll just leave it at that. Been there and got some "T" shirts.
Not to say your friend is one of these miscreants, it's just that I have seen things..........

But in the big picture, the way things are now, I would fully endorse drug and alcohol screening...
IF!!!! They were administered every day, AND to ALL ELECTED persons. Mayors, judges, council, senate, postal, trash collectors... ALL persons receiving a government paycheck!!!!!!!!!!!
Welfare, SSI, and unemployment included.
But until then, it should be illegal, because those who made the law do not have to adhere by it!
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-02-2012 03:03
He has been working there several years now for a handfull of contractors, they all seem to follow the same rules, which I guess come from U.S. Govt.

Seems they test those guys weather they endorse it or not.

Don't hold Your breath waiting for drug & alcohol testing for Govt. & the rest You listed.

There are many laws that don't apply to those Who make them, or at least not equally.

I am sure there are other ways to make a lot of money over there.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Drug test

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