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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 vs Seal Weld Requirement
- - By RailFab Date 02-07-2013 17:57
We are currently fabricating handrail for a project that is to be welded to AWS D1.1 standards. The project is also seal welded.
I know AWS D1.1 allows for some porosity in the welds. Our customer however is claiming that because of the seal weld requirement the welds can’t have any porosity.
Does AWS address seal welding and allowable porosity?  If the standard is D1.1 then shouldn’t the porosity be allowed as long as it meets the D1.1 standard?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-07-2013 18:04 Edited 02-07-2013 19:37
I doubt that you will [edit] find [/edit]different acceptance criteria concerning porosity anywhere in D1.1 for seal welds than what is written in Table 6.1 for visual weld inspection.

Having said that, is the rail to be galvanized?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-07-2013 18:09
Does the rail project fall into the scope of D1.1? or is D1.3 invoked by D1.1, clause 1.2 Limitations?
Parent - By RailFab Date 02-07-2013 18:37
The project paints and it is spec'd to D1.1.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-07-2013 19:51
WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

Is this part of a larger project?

Either way are you working off a set of plans?

If there are plans, then there are General Notes and often some pertaining to the railing which should call out all your criteria.  Even if not in the General Notes, have you looked through the Job Specifications?  Anywhere from 500-1500 pages (in 1-3 books),  with details on everything on the job. 

Remember, the Engineer can accept, change, modify, delete, add and/or in any way he deems necessary alter the code.  The Contract Documents are more your 'Bible' than the code called out. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By RailFab Date 02-07-2013 20:06
The Spec's say to weld it to D1.1
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-07-2013 20:17
Generally most inspectors realize what a seal weld is for and give those particular welds a little more leeway when it comes to visual inspections on porosity.  But technically it's a weld that needs to meet table 6.1 of D1.1 it needs to be a decent acceptable weld.
Commen sense doesn't always prevail in these circumstances and you need to CYA just in case.
Parent - - By RailFab Date 02-07-2013 20:43
They are trying to exceed the table and require no porosity.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-07-2013 21:08
Depending on how hard a stance you want to take with the customer, maybe a change order is appropriate for the tighter tolerance(zero tolerance) on the porosity. I do understand that they may not want any rust bleeding on their product due to porosity. It's funny how galvanizing and paint do not like to fill in those little pores.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-07-2013 22:39
Okay, there is a difference here but I'm not sure since we can't see the specs on how it is actually worded.

According to your first post it is to be welded to D1.1 standards and it is also to be seal welded.  So, if both of those are contained within the work requirements of the plans/specs then you must do both.

The D1.1 standards are one thing.  You need a WPS for the process, material, to be welded.  You need currently certified welders to D1.1 pipe (not plate) tests rather it is pipe or HSS.  You need backing and root gap and all the other requirements of D1.1.  So you are getting CJP welds at the butt joints.  The T-joints won't need backing.  I realize that it may not even be pipe or HSS but that would be highly unusual.  But if it is you may get by with plate qualifications on your welders.  Since you are talking about seal welds I am even more convinced it is either pipe or HSS.

BUT, next, with the scant information provided in your first post, you appear to be ALSO required to produce 'seal welds'.  Since Clause 6 does not actually pertain to the fabrication aspect but gives the inspector direction of what is Acceptable in a finished weld the welders should only concern themselves with accomplishing the job requirements.  Obviously porosity leads to leaks.  Seldom will porosity in a single pass railing joint NOT allow the passage of moisture.  Thus, no porosity would be acceptable.  As the inspector of the job, that would be a supplemental inspection requirement, making sure the customer had a product with no leaks. 

You have gone out of your way stressing that the welding was to be done to D1.1.  BUT, do you know what the inspection criteria is?  It is often listed in multiple locations throughout the General Notes, the Job Specifications, the IBC, AISC Construction Manual and Code of Standard Practice, etc.  Your problem is not with the Inspector but with the possible absence of Acceptance/Rejection criteria for the 'seal weld' requirement.  The inspector is totally correct in his/her insistance of no porosity.  D1.1 may allow for porosity but once it crossed over into the standards of a seal weld everything changed.

AWS A3.0 (Standard Welding Terms and Definitions): "seal weld.  Any weld intended primarily to provide a specific degree of tightness against leakage."

And, porosity equals leakage.

Sorry, I don't agree.  The inspector is not trying to exceed the table.  The table is not the only inspection criteria.  After the standards of Table 6.1 have been insured then they must also satisfy the seal weld.

Just my two tin pennies worth.  And, as the famous Al often says, you came here for free comments and advice, you are getting what you paid for.  If you don't like my advice, don't take it and go pay someone until you find someone who will agree with you.  I'm sure there is someone who will tell you that you are right if you pay them enough.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 02-09-2013 03:54 Edited 02-09-2013 04:01
Seal welds can be called, for faying surfaces, to prevent the infiltration of moisture between the two surfaces.  Seal welds are not strictly pipe related.  I'm not sure I understand why someone would not give the client the level of quality they are asking for.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2013 17:03 Edited 02-08-2013 17:10
Maybe I'm just plain dumb, but can someone show me in AWS D1.1 where there is separate criteria for a seal weld versus a "regular" weld? For that matter, where in D1.1 is there a definition of a seal weld? Let's stick with AWS D1.1:2010 so we are comparing apples to apples.

The only visual criteria I am aware of in D1.1 that addresses porosity is Table 6.1 and I do not see a separate column with the heading "Seal Welds."

Help, I've nearly worn out the pages of D1.1.

If the requirements listed by the project specifications simply states the welding must comply with AWS D1.1-XX, then that is the criteria the contractor is bound to. The Engineer has the responsibility of addressing “special cases” or “exceptions” in the project specifications. If specific welds are subject to more stringent visual criteria than that listed in D1.1, the Engineer has the responsibility to delineate the “special requirements” in the project specifications before the contract is awarded.

This sounds like money in the bank to me. The Owner wants to modify the requirements after the contract was awarded. That sounds like a change order is needed and the appropriate charges for an "extra" to compensate the contractor for the additional work. If the owner does not want to issue a change order, the work proceeds as any other AWS fabrication/welding job  the visul criteria as found in AWS D1.1, Table 6. applies. Please reference Clause 1.4.1, specifically Clause 1.4.1(4) and (7).

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-08-2013 17:20
I agree Al, BUT, his OP second sentence says it is also 'seal welded'.  When I asked other questions about requirements and what the notes may have said there was not an answer other than it was to be welded to D1.1. 

I still take that to mean that there were other requirements for seal welding within the plans or why would that statement have been made in the first place.  And if it is one of his requirements on the railings then that also would alter any inspections requirements for an inspector. 

On one hand I may be presuming too much, but he made that statement in his first post.  He also has not responded to my question as to rather he knows the inspection criteria.  The job specs may have inspection requirements beyond just D1.1 Table 6.1 at which point the inspector is not going beyond.  To claim an inspector is going beyond in his requirements when not telling us what that specifically is brings out wrong perceptions. 

All I said was that if seal welds are part of his requirement then the inspections are probably more strict than just the Table 6.1 porosity criteria. 

I never claimed that seal welds were within D1.1 in any way.  Hope I didn't mislead.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2013 18:26
Calm down Brent. You sound like you are getting a little hot under the collar. I'm not throwing rocks at your response. I would approach the situation from a different angle to keep myself out of the contractor's line of gun fire.

It was noted that the Engineer can modify the code requirements, but a note on the drawing stating that the weld is a "seal weld" is nearly meaningless unless there is a definition of the "seal weld" and the Engineer defines the appropriate acceptance criteria.

Most people use the term to indicate the weld is intended to exclude weather and transfers no load. A welded structure is monolithic. Every weld shares the load that is transmitted from one member to the connecting member. When the seal weld fails to meet the minimum size requirement of Tables 3.4 and 5.8 undesirable metallurgical microstructures can result. Small seal welds often fail once they are placed into service because designers fail to understand they will share the load whether they are intended to or not.

There is no universal standard for “seal welds” that I am aware of. One inspector has his own criteria that he applies; another inspector has his own criteria. In my opinion both inspectors are in the wrong if the criteria they apply are based on “personal opinion.” The Engineer is responsible to spell out the applicable acceptance criteria in the project documents if he wishes to use something other than the criteria published in D1.1 or other reference standard.  

The third party inspector is treading very thin ice when a decision is made based on past experience or personal opinion. If and when there is a question that cannot be answered by the appropriate code, the Engineer is the authority. I know they sometimes bulk at getting involved in making a decision, but that is part of their responsibility. If there is question with regards to the intent of the code, the Engineer is the authority until an interpretation from the code committee is requested and issued.  The verification inspector has very little authority. He reports his finding to the Engineer. The Engineer then decides whether corrective action is required. With that in mind, I rarely “reject” work completed by a contractor. I simply report non-compliances to the Engineer. It is the Engineer’s responsibility to accept the work as is, request additional information, or direct the contractor to perform corrective work. The verification inspector should make every effort to write reports that include sufficient detail that the Engineer can make the necessary decision. When the inspector complains that the Engineer isn’t responding to the report, it is often because the inspection report is not clear and detailed. I like to include photographs I my report of any nonconforming work to help the Engineer understand the condition I am reporting.

In this case, a “seal weld” with porosity; a photograph sent to the Engineer can help him make the necessary decision whether the porosity is a problem or if the code language and acceptance criteria are adequate. If the code criteria are insufficient, the Engineer has to define what requirements must be met. Once again, if the alternate criteria is not included in the project documents and new criteria is issued, a change order is justified and the contractor should be compensated for any additional work, including repairs, to correct the situation. It is not the verification inspector’s responsibility to develop alternate inspection criteria because he believes the code is not adequate. 

In this case I can only respond based on the information provided. As additional information comes to light I too may change my position. However, in consideration of what I know based on the post, it would be presumptuous of me to assume too much.   

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-08-2013 22:04
I agree completely.  And I was probably premature in some comments though I still believe them to be correct in the context that I included them as I believe I really stated the same things just not as eloquently.  (and I didn't think you were casting stones my way as to destructive criticism, but only as constructive guidance).

I tend to get my back up too quickly when some of these guys start casting stones at inspectors.  I believe that in this case the OP was also premature to stating that the inspector is demanding things outside/beyond the code (which may be true) but not giving members of the forum all the facts or answering questions raised to see what the full story is.  No one knows until we know the full requirements of the Contract Documents/Job Specifications for both the welding and the inspecting. 

I will not put this poster in the following category at this point, but, there are way too many contractors who don't even know some of these documents exist let alone look through them.  Then, they skip all the parts on excavation, masonry, electrical, etc (which can actually have some parts that apply to the welders) including the section for the inspectors and only read the part on their little piece of the job.  That often means that certain aspects of their shop drawings and other submittals are incomplete and that they are not doing their job as required. 

Then, when they thought they were all done, the inspector comes along and says 'this isn't good enough- we need a little repair work here.'  All of a sudden all his woes are because the inspector is demanding more than the code requires.  Truth be told, yes he is.  But only because the Job Specs required him to.  The Code was not the final inspection document.

Now, we don't know that.  That is why I asked if he knew what the inspection criteria was.

Anyway, thank you for your perspective.  I really appreciate your attention to these details. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2013 22:55
I agree with what you've said.

One of those jobs is chewing my butt as I type. The customer only provided some of the information. Now I have mud on my face as does the lab that did some work for me. It is as if you are always waiting for " the rest of the story." as Paul Harvey used to say.

Then the customer wants to know why you will not drop everything and come running back to "correct/finish the job."

Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-12-2013 04:34 Edited 02-12-2013 04:42
This is straight from Duane K. Miller, Sc.D., P.E. Practical Ideas for the Design Professional.

Use Caution When Specifying “Seal Welds.”

Introduction


What is a “seal weld?” AWS A3.0, Standard Welding Terms and Definitions, defines a seal weld as: “Any weld designed primarily to provide a specific degree of tightness
against leakage.” The purpose of a seal weld may be to contain a fluid – either gaseous or liquid. In the mechanical and structural fields, seal welds are used most
often not to prevent leakage out of a container, but to prevent entry of a fluid into a space where some type of harmful behavior, often corrosion, is expected to occur.
In these fields, seal welds are frequently used to preclude moisture and oxygen-laden air and water from entering that cavity.

Seal welds may be specified on parts to be galvanized to prohibit pickling acids and/or liquid zinc from entering into a specific region.
For architecturally exposed steel that is to be painted, seal welds may be specified to prevent unsightly rust bleeding. Seal welds may be required for some
applications where the sealed joint is more conducive to cleanup than an exposed joint would be. Food processing facilities are one such example.
The characteristic common to all of the aforementioned examples of seal welds is as follows: none of them are placed for traditional strength-related reasons,
and for this reason, caution should be exhibited when seal welds are specified. In some cases, the application of a seal weld may result in a conflict of code requirements.

In others, the seal weld may perform structural functions that were unintended, resulting in undesirable load paths. Seal welds may affect inspection practices,
in particular, the interpretation of ultrasonic inspection results. Finally, seal welds may be treated in a casual manner by those responsible for making them, resulting in weld quality problems. Each of these examples will be examined, as will be some issues related to galvanizing that need to be considered as well.

Code Conflicts

A common inquiry is as follows: “The drawings call for seal weld, but in order for me to comply with that requirement, I need to violate AWS D1.1-98, Section 2.4.7.5.
What should I do?” The specific code provision cited is the one that calls for the interruption of welds which occur on opposite sides of a common plane, and under these conditions, the welds are required to be interrupted at the corner (Figure 1). This provision has a practical foundation: it is difficult to make a continuous weld in these conditions, and the probability of undercutting the corners is great when the welds are made continuous.

This is one problem associated with seal welds when applied to these situations. Other code provisions can be violated, including AWS D1.1, Section 2.4.7.3, which addresses “flexible connections”that rely on the flexibility of the outstanding leg of angles (Figure 2). Examples would include framing angles, top angles of seated beam connections, and simple end plate connections. A seal weld around a flexible connection reduces such flexibility and may change the overall behavior that is expected.

AWS D1.1, Section 2.4.7.4, calls for welds on stiffeners to be cut short not less than 4 times, nor more than 6 times, the thickness of the web from the weld toe of the
web-to-flange welds (Figure 3). This provision was incorporated to provide for a degree of flexibility in this region. Previous experience in shipping had shown this to be an area that was prone to cracking when the weld extended too far. Seal welds applied to this area effectively preclude such flexibility. The designer who calls for a seal weld should review these code provisions if the project is governed by the D1.1 code, and in the situations where the code is not applicable, examine these principles and determine their relative suitability to the components where seal welding has been utilized. To handle the issue of consistency between job specifications and code requirements, the engineer can address how these issues are to be resolved in the project specifications. The preceding list of code examples is illustrative only, and may not be comprehensive in its coverage of issues where seal welding requirements may violate code provisions.

Alternate Load Paths

The second major series of problems associated with seal welds involves those applications where unintended load paths are created. For example, a lapped connection may
be joined by bolts with no welds expected at all. However, a seal weld is specified around the connection. AWS D1.1, Section 2.6.3, may be applicable in this situation.
In bearing connections, the code does not allow bolts and welds to share the load.

Of course, in this particular situation, the designer would probably not consider the seal welds as members that would share loads with welds, but in fact, they will. The seal welds would be small in size and probably incapable of transmitting the applied loads by themselves. In actual service, the first thing that would happen would be for the welds to fracture, violating the purpose of the seal weld, before the bolts would load up and carry the transferred forces. The welding adage, “There are no secondary members in welded design,” is applicable when considering seal welds.

An example arose several years ago where a tub-type rock crusher had been designed with a series of stiffeners. The detailing had been carefully thought through so as to avoid stress risers. A stainless steel nameplate was to be applied to the unit, and a seal weld was called for to attach this nameplate. The entire unit received a special, multicoat paint system to preclude corrosion, and the seal weld ensured that the material under the stainless steel nameplate would not be exposed to the elements.

The nameplate was put into a high stress region, and whether intended or not by the designer, the nameplate became part of the load bearing system, and the weld introduced residual stresses as well. The seal weld around the nameplate became the design limiting fatigue detail that resulted in crack initiation in service. The intention of the designer was circumvented by an ill-conceived plan for a seal weld around a nameplate. In this particular example, any weld (including an intermittent weld) may have created a poor fatigue detail.

Casual Treatment of Seal Welds

The minimum heat input requirements imposed by AWS D1.1 may be violated when the seal weld is made. Table 5.8 of that code prescribes certain minimum sizes of welds that must be maintained, regardless of the level of loading, in order to ensure that adequate heat input is achieved when the weld is made. The size of the seal weld may not be specified, resulting in a weld that would otherwise be disallowed by Table 5.8. It is still important that good welding practices be followed when seal welds are made, including adherence to the minimum fillet weld size. Failure to do so may result in weld cracking or incomplete fusion defects.

The welder who is charged with the responsibility of making a seal weld may approach it in a very casual manner, as might the welder’s supervisor. The welder should have
the same qualifications as the welder charged with the responsibility for making a similar weld that would have a structural purpose. The welding procedures, including the
selection of the electrode and the required preheat level, are deserving of the same attention as a weld that transfers calculated loads. The claim “It is only a seal weld” is
often a prescription for problems.

Inspection Issues

The presence of seal welds around steel backing that is left in place after welding may have implications for the ultrasonic testing (UT) of such connections. Consider
Figure 4 in which a CJP groove weld with steel backing is inspected with UT. An alternate sound path is created when the seal welds are placed around the left-in-place
backing. Such implications should be understood before inspection begins. If backing is to be seal welded to the base material, then one may consider making the backing a little wider (Figure 5). With the seal welds further from welded joint, the UT sound waves will have a better opportunity to “see” the root without secondary reflections through the seal welds.

Galvanizing Issues

One of the more common applications for seal welds is in assemblies that are required to be hot dip galvanized (Figure 6). The American Galvanizers Association (AGA) defines three classes for welded assemblies that will be galvanized. Class 1 Joints are held together by a full seal weld. Class 2 Joints are held together by seal welds, but
the overlapped area is large enough to require venting, i.e., provision of an escape hole for the release of expanding trapped gases. Class 3 Joint details do not contain seal
welds.

Conclusions

Seal welds can perform an important function both in containing fluids, and in precluding the entry of fluids into regions where harmful effects can result. However, seal
welds also can unintentionally cause differences in the structural behavior of the attached members, and the designer should be aware of these potential interactions.
The welding practices employed when seal welds are made should not be any different than those associated with welds that are designed to carry loads.
When seal welds are applied to galvanized assemblies, caution should be taken to make sure that venting is appropriate, and for Class 1 Joints where
vents are not required, that the weld is “porosity-free” so that no seepage is experienced. Once seal welds have been carefully thought through, the designer needs to clearly communicate in the job specifications how the fabricator is to deal with code restrictions which may specify practices that are inconsistent with seal welding.

Illustrations can be found here:

http://www.jflf.org/pdfs/papers/design_file6.pdf

Welding Innovation Vol. XVI, No. 2, 1999

Hope this helps to clarify any confusion that may still be lurking.:confused::eek::yell::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-12-2013 04:53
I read this article before and I saved it to my computer. Low and behold, when I copied my files from the old computer to the new computer, none of my "welding files" were transferred.

Thanks Henry, I once again have it saved to my "Welding" file.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-12-2013 13:18
Very good Henry.  Again, a vast resource you are.  Thanks.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By RailFab Date 02-12-2013 20:33
Thanks to every one who has taken time to respond. Your opinions and views are much appreciated. We have gone over the contract documents and there is no special inspection requirements. The engineer has not noted anything other requiring seal weld and to weld it to the D1.1 code. Thanks again for your input.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 02-13-2013 02:21
The 2 UT pictures answered a few questions I had about the welding of backer bars.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-13-2013 06:35
Railfab,
Is your company responsible for the painting as well ?
I have worked on two projects with AWS D1.1 (1 x Thailand & 1 x Malaysia) and the Fabrication / Welding specifications stated welding to be in accordance with AWS D1.1 (some porosity is allowed) and the Painting/Surface Treatment specifications stated no porosity allowed.
Obviously the no porosity requirement should have been noted in the welding specs and not just the painting specs - caused a lot of unnecessary confusion.
Cheers,
Shane
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 vs Seal Weld Requirement

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