Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / anyone run a 7018 or 8018 downhill?
- - By Chris2626 (***) Date 03-03-2013 00:03
Guy i use to work with I just got off the phone with talked about welding on a pipeline running 7018 downhill is this possible?
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 03-03-2013 00:29
I used to work for CBI years ago. Part of their test was 7018 downhill. Just "Crank it Up" and let it roll !
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 03-03-2013 02:56
CBI also known as "Snorton Horton"(up here). Nothing smaller than 5/32 in the rod oven and man, can them guys blaze '18 downhill!
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 03-03-2013 03:20
I looked on here and seen a 7016 rod they call for downhill not sure if he got it confused with that one.
Parent - - By NMWELDING (**) Date 03-03-2013 03:29
I believe Lincoln makes a downhill low hydrogen rod. But like Cactus said,crank up the heat and move. Actually lays in real nice.I have done this mainly on patchwork on crude oil tanks,treaters and even some pipe. Not a good way to weld if strength is needed though.
Parent - By Chris2626 (***) Date 03-03-2013 03:49
I was just curious is all I thought the guy had been sniffing to many fumes and was just wondering if it was true.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 03-03-2013 04:06
I heard of 7018 downhill being used to control distortion on long welds.  That pass usually gets back gouged out.  The back gouging help's relieve the slight distortion that's caused by the quick downhill.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-03-2013 06:35
Bohler Fox produce a range of low-hy electrodes for welding downhill:

http://www.boehler-welding.com/german/files/Pipeline_ENG.pdf

Page 15 - 21. These are mainly used for pipeline work.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 14:06
Way back in another life in another century and galaxy far, far away, I was a Union "Tankie".
NEVER TELL A TANKIE HE CAN'T DO SOMETHING!
I'm here to tell ya... "There's aint no such thing as impossible for God or a Tankie".
If you are having problems with welding, you just aint got it turned up hot enough! If it don't fit, git a bigger hammer.
We used to say "Do or Die for CB&I".
Daily job assignment... wear out a 4# hammer before quitting time...

Oh, oops back to the OP. Yes 7018 can be (and does get) welded down hill. Should it?? Nahhh.
7048 is a LowHi (developed by Lincoln) specifically made for down hill welding. Does it work??? Nahhh. Not worth a danged.
Well, maybe after a week or so you'll stop hating it. Somewhat analogous to a broken leg. After a few days you begin to ignore the pain.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-03-2013 14:16
"Do or Die for CB&I" - haven't heard that for a while! I too used to work for CB&I and first heard that saying on a AP1 course! Not quite what the instructor wanted to hear!
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 03-03-2013 14:23
There's been some experimentation on pipeline work with a specific formulation for downhill 7018. To try this on pipe is somewhat of a new trick and pipeliners are getting to be very old dogs, so we'll see if this takes a generation to catch on. I bet MIG and Fluxcore technologies win.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 14:39
The 7048 downhill pipeline rod by Lincoln came out probably 30 years ago.
It will NEVER catch on in the pipeline field. API 1104 Company's are slow to change. It is hard to buck a process and procedure that has essentially remained unchanged in nearly a century. Phased array UT is another deal where it is far superior to X-Ray, but is going to take several more years before it receives universal acceptance in the cross country pipeline sector. I did see it used for Off shore pipeline a couple of years ago. They could make their inspection in the same time as the welders could make one pass on the 6" pipe. This was at a Spool Base, which is a fascinating operation to see. Watch miles of pipe get rolled up like fishing line on a huge reel.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 14:26
46.00
" I too used to work for CB&I"...
This explains a lot now.... lol.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-03-2013 15:38
Yep I was Mr CB&I lol............our way or the high way!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-11-2013 21:01
And here's another one.  I guess with outfits that size around we were bound to have a few here who have spent time with them.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By jdrmmr (*) Date 03-12-2013 03:25
Chalk me up for CBI too.

Best I remember ¼” steel round seam (horizontal) both sides counting arc gouging paid .11 per hundred feet.  You weld both sides and made 11 hours for every hundred feet of welding. This was in the late 60’s and early 70’s. I spent 6 years with them. Never worked a minute of overtime. They’ll tell you quick if you do your job you can’t have anything left after 8 hours. I made some good money but the work was tough. 

But to the Op’s question, yes 7018 can be welded downhill. Actually, makes a good looking weld. We would weld up the “vert’s” (verticals) and cap with 2 passes down. Took the downhill test.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 21:12
7016?
Wow, haven't seen one of them since school.
I think another one of the big reasons Low Hi never caught on with the pipeliners was the moisture/exposure requirements.
Makes it too tough to comply with field conditions. Pipeliners don't want to hassle with the time required to fool around with heated rod caddys.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-04-2013 09:20
Big circles..
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-04-2013 17:05
1/16" 6011 was my "Duct Work" rod on the rig.
Don't leave home without it.
Oil pans, ducts, Knack boxes, you name it.
If it's thin, 6011 wins
Parent - By Rafter_G_Weldin (***) Date 03-03-2013 16:07
Yes it can be done lays in real nice the number 1 in 7018 means all position rod
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-03-2013 16:24
I've done it on lighter, non critical stuff but cranking up the machine and trucking like road runner to keep ahead of the puddle to keep the slag from contaminating the weld or the lack of fusion issue that would arise at the root if the puddle got ahead of you. Not really laying down that much filler metal as compared to an uphill run with 7018. Faster perhaps, just as good I could not tell you. Tommy and I did a job a few years ago and they attempted downhill 7018 and we gouged out many a weld where the root of the filet joint had been untouched by filler material. It looked as good as it did when they bought it and butted the plates together. For the intended purpose of this stuff we were working on it might have been ok but the owner knew a little about welding and it was not what he paid for from the first guys who did the job.

In my trails I have not run across many that consider this an acceptable practice. Older welders who have been doing boiler work for 20-30 years and others pretty much say the same thing, "there's no downhill in ASME or AWS". Not saying there isn't but I have not run across anything to date other than some farm repairs on thin metals or fence trash. Doing it and because your running so fast I have seen concavity in the welds, maybe a bigger rod, more heat would cure it but with that comes more flux. Concavity from my studies is a reason for failure past a certain measurement. In my minds eye if it tends to do this because you are trying to keep ahead of the puddle and you have to go over it again, again....why not run uphill where you can pile the weld in there and limit passes? I've also heard chatter about penetration. Whether you actually get as good of penetration running downhill with the 7018. In my experience running lighter metals is why I use it, less penetration as opposed to uphill. Take a 3/8" beveled plate and weld half uphill and watch the weld pool, penetration and then on the other side run downhill with 7018 and compare. If you cut it and etch it or shoot it with x-ray to compare that would be interesting to see. I bet there would be no comparison though.

Just my two cents, in my shop not acceptable for anything other than a galvanized pipe fence repair or fixing the 1/8" sides on my trailer. As I said though, maybe somewhere they've got it figured out and it's the cats meow. I tend to agree with Superflux on it, "Yes 7018 can be (and does get) welded down hill. Should it?? Nahhh."
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 16:53
A far better way to do sheet metal is with a 6011 on straight (electrode negative) polarity. 7018 can be used EN too, but it's really hard to de-slag the welds.

Low Hi down hill takes some serious tweaking of conventional rod angles and manipulation techniques.
Even the 7048 is one ugly Slag trapping beast. Any one that has used this and passed a bend test or any subsurface flaw seeking NDE (UT RT) is either very experienced with this process, or even luckier and should take such luck to Vegas or buy lottery tickets.
I tested a crew of highly experienced and competent Tankies about 5 years ago on 3/8" plate with 7048. Test plates and hoods were flying... Very dangerous and hostile test booth and shop for that week.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-03-2013 20:05
In the almost 6 years I've been doing this I honestly don't think I have bought a single 6011! :lol::lol: Got silicone bronze, 308,309, 12018 and a plethora of rod and wire but not one single 6011. Think I'll have to go to TSC and buy a 5lb'r!! :lol:
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-03-2013 21:06
6011's Not really needed in the shop if you have .035 FCAW or GMAW.
BUT GREAT FOR THOSE QUICKYS IN THE FIELD.
As I said 7018 will work on straight polarity, but the slag on the thin stuff can be harder to get rid of than a newly hatched Alien off your face.
Good thing about 6011 is keep it dry in a rod tube with screw cap and it will have the shelf life of plutonium..
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-04-2013 01:27 Edited 03-04-2013 03:18
6011 or otherwise known as "junk rod" or "soup can" rod is really good for sewing up a bad fit on thin no big deal metal....it fills better then a 6010 and burns in way better then a 6013.  6013 is good for long welds on sheet metal (14ga) and the like where you need something that freezes fast.  6011 is good for repairs on rusty crappy material.  You can just whip the hell out of it, wide heat range, and don't worry with the flux and breaking arc...just step right over it and go on.  AND its cheap cheap.

EDIT:  hell I fixed my own gate with 6011
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-04-2013 02:15
6011 is the farmers best friend. With 3/32 & 1/8 6011 and an AC buz box You can do most  of the non critical mild steel repairs without much investment. Add 6013 in the same sizes, and You can do the rest of them...:wink:
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 03-04-2013 21:35
There are specific DH rods for LH welding on pipelines. Not in favor as pipeliners do not like LH.
Hardheaded, etc.
However 7018 CAN be run DH just there are few people who can do it. In the days of wooden ships and iron men, there were no grinders. Or at least those that were able to be used by hand. Using 7018 as a wash pass leveled everything up and made the weld flat. A good wash pass hand was worth his weight on gold. In 20 years working around tanks I have seen 2 welders who knew how to run it. One was a old CBI honest to god tankee and the other was a import from Mexico. Both were slick LH hands and the smallest rod they welded with were 5/32 and perfered the 3/16's. The welder has to have another rod in their off hand and if the slag starts getting ahead of the weld puddle the welder flicks the slag off. You have to have a welding machine that can handle the heat as once you get started you do not stop until you get to the bottom.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 03-04-2013 23:51
I thought the one meant and all position rod.I may be wrong but it want be the first or last time.

                               M.G.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 03-05-2013 03:00
A friend of mine is from a career of mining work and he is quite proficient with overhead Jet (7024).
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-05-2013 13:40
E7024 is not really made to be an overhead rod.
The 3rd number 2 (Exx2x) designates this to be used in the flat or horizontal positions.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 03-05-2013 04:38
Milton / Shad,
There is sometimes confusion in what is meant by "all positions".
Positions are Flat, Vertical, Horizontal and Overhead.
Uphill and Downhill are "progressions".
So a 1 as the 3rd digit means it can be used in "all positions" - (F,V,H,O) but not necessarily with vertical down progression.
A 4 as the 3rd Digit means it is all position and can be used with vertical down progression (eg. E7048)
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 03-05-2013 13:06
Glad I started this, I sure am getting a wealth of knowledge.

Thanks Guys
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 03-06-2013 22:58
Check this out you learn something ever day http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/products/consumableeu_stickelectrodes-baso-baso26v/baso26v-eng.pdf
     
                                       M.G.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 03-05-2013 13:20
"Guy i use to work with I just got off the phone with talked about welding on a pipeline running 7018 downhill is this possible? "

Yea, there were transmission lines laid years ago with regular Lohi DH. Same as normal, qualify the procedures, 100% rt/hydro.

Lincoln has made several versions of DH specific  Lohi over the decades, none have really caught on.
Just about everything has been tried at one time or another in the mainline sector from solid wire to flux core (up and down), they are constantly experimenting.
There's a large mainline being built this year all Lohi uphill.
From a cost standpoint 3/16" or 5mm 8010 hasn't been beat yet but higher grades of line pipe have made some changes.

J
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-05-2013 13:44
Shane,
I wonder why they never reclassified E6010 as an E6048???
Pound for pound, it is probably used downhill as much if not more than it is uphill.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 03-05-2013 13:56
Did a 54" water line with Bechtel in 1980 on a Methanol plant in New Zealand where it was E6010 vertical up.
Never heard of them being used for anything other than vertical down since.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 03-05-2013 16:04
Most of my B31.1 and B31.3 projects run the root and hot pass uphill with 6010, then fill and cap with 7018
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 03-06-2013 00:15
Shane,I have check on these E7048 rods and they look like they are hard to fine here in the USA.

             M.G.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 03-06-2013 00:26
Milton,
I didn't look very hard for E7048 but Lincoln make these for vertical down on pipe
Pipeliner LH-D80  AWS E8045
Pipeliner LH-D90  AWS E9045
Pipeliner LH-D100  AWS E10045

Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-05-2013 17:21
That would be cool to see, flicking slag with one hand while welding down with the other!
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-12-2013 03:17
ummmmmm   DON'T
Parent - By 2006strat (***) Date 03-12-2013 17:01
Yea turn that machine up about 10 more then you would run it up.  Dont step or weave it.  Stack it roll with you.  Watch the slag behind you to.  If you have to put a bead in.  Just give me a call not gonna type it all.
- By Sberry (***) Date 06-18-2018 19:44
It can be done.[img][/img]
Attachment: 7018down2.JPG (33k)
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / anyone run a 7018 or 8018 downhill?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill