AWS D1.1-2010-Table 4.10-WPQT -6GR position

Date 03-08-2013 13:52 Edited 03-08-2013 14:18

This sounds like Performance Qualificaiton
Not sure what weld type you are running, but it sounds like CJP for tubular, which references 4.27
4.27 says there are 2 options on pipe, with backing or back gouging, and without backing or backgouging, and you are supposed to use either Fig 4.24 A or B depending on this variable.
If you are in 8" pipe, you are almost certainly not gouging, so are you using backing? You mention a "root run (backing weld), which by definition is a weld run on the inside of the pipe before the groove is filled in. Againif you are in 8" pipe, this is not likely

The test you describe is not the code approved 6GR, which requires a heavier wall pipe on the "top" of the test assembly, so I assume you really ran a Fig 4.24 as above

This is actually good, as footnote i of Table 4.10 indicates that for CJP production joints without gouging or backing, Fig 4.24 is required

So which test did you do?

By Nalla

Date 03-08-2013 15:51

Dear Sir
Yes. my query in regard of Welder Performance Qualification Testing ( WPQT ).
WPS/PQR qualified with SMAW
Root Run - LB52U (Kobeloco ) Hot/Fill/Cap- LB52 - both AWS Classification - E7016 - F4
So the root run act as backing weld & it is a CJP weld.
RT followed by Mechanical Testing and Impact Tested at -20deg. celcius

So, for WPQT the same consumables used - Single Bevel Groove as shown in Fig 4.27.
VI & RT done and passed.

Question - With his 6GR qualification he can weld in 1G to 6G.
Then, i dont need to qualify welders in other position(s) for example 2G , 3G , 4G , 6G , 5G ...etc.

And i need guidance to understand on the notes d,e,f,h very clearly.

Very often arguments comes about on the 6GR Welder qualification range from our vendors as they quite naturally want to save their overhead cost.

Thanks

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-09-2013 19:11

Nalla, To answer your question Question - With his 6GR qualification he can weld in 1G to 6G.
Then, i dont need to qualify welders in other position(s) for example 2G , 3G , 4G , 6G , 5G ...etc.

If your welder welded pipe, in the 6GR position without backing, he is qualified to weld anything (plate, pipe, box tube, etc) covered by D1.1 except open root T,Y or K connections or as noted in table 4.10. For open root T,Y or K connections he would also have to weld a coupon like fig 4.29. OR a single coupon using box tube section like fig. 4.27 with macro's taken from locations as shown in Fig. 4.29.

And i need guidance to understand on the notes d,e,f,h very clearly.

Note d: If your welder welded 6GR with backing, you are qualified only with joints using backing, OR, if no backing is used you must backgouge and weld from both sides.
Note e: Your welder cannot weld the inside part of an acute angle of less than 30°.
Note f: Means the same as for a plate qualification, you can only weld pipe over 24 inches in diameter if you welded box tubing for a qualification. If your welder welded a pipe coupon, ignore his note.
Note h: After all the hassle of going to errata and clauses 4.26 & 4.29, means to go to table 4.11 and see what dihedral angles you can weld fillets, which I believe in your case is 30°

Hope that helps, Carl

By Nalla

Date 03-10-2013 12:58

Dear Ctacker
Thanks
What is the difference open root butt joint and single bevel joint shown in Fig 4.27. Both require FP weld.
Butt FP joint can be single bevel or V.

Can i take macro specimens from 4.27 instead of welding another coupon as shown in Fig 4.29?

And note d - " weld from side without backing" what does it actually mean?
My welder welding root till cap.Isn't the root run is back weld.
Does it mean he cannot weld pipe butt joint which single-V joint type.?

By S. WINAI (**)

Date 03-10-2013 14:30

Hi Nalla,

if im not wrong u r try to ask question that: welder qulified 6GR why can not weld pipe from one side without backing or backgouging?
about this thing i also not understand why code not allow. so i suggest that give the welder who qualified with 6G weld root run then 6GR welder can follow up by hot,fill, cap pass. if any one know what is the reason. why code not allow. pls help to explan.

Thanks,

winai

By Nalla

Date 03-10-2013 16:51

Hi Winai

That's right
Require 2 welders ( 6G+ 6GR ) instead of one 6GR welder.
AWS D1.1 recognizes 6G & 6GR Welders but ASME Sect IX mention about 6G position/welders only.

Normally in piping above 2" in dia - Root run by GTAW and the rest by SMAW being practised to save the cost.
Normally, 6GR WPQT Test Coupon - 8" x sch 120
And if root run by 6G welder and the rest by 6GR welder, than what dia/thk range he is qualified for.
Does his qualification range as per ASME Sect IX -QW-452?

Appreciate other forum experts share your insights.

By eekpod

Date 03-11-2013 10:31

Nalla.
It sounds to me like your procedure isn't in agreement with the code, but maybe I'm missing something.

I'm hearing you did a root pass first from the outside of the pipe to close the open root, without grinding from the inside and now are calling it a "backing weld".
And then continueing on from their using the "backing weld" as a layer to install the remainer of your passes in the joint.

In order to comply with D1.1 your root pass has to have one of two things; either a backing bar or ring in your case, OR you have to backgouge the root from the second side and re-weld it from the second side.
If you were to install your root from the inside of the pipe first and then grind the outside of it and continue to weld from the outside as normal that would be ok as well.

In your descriptions I never heard anything about grinding, welding from the second side. I would assume it's becasue you can't as the diameter of your pipe is too small to allow it.
That's what I'm getting from your descriptions.

As far as why doesn't AWS not allow open root like ASME does, I can't say.

By Nalla

Date 03-11-2013 15:32

Dear Eekpod
For yout info:-
PQR & WPQT Test Coupons as per AWS D1.1 Fig 4.27.ie- Single Bevel with stimulated hi-low open root FP butt joint and restriction ring.
In this case no backgouging/second side grinding not possible/required,am i right?

As for PQR- RT, Mechanical Tests and Impact Tested to -20deg celcius.
Aas for WPQT- Onlt RT done and that's what required, am i right?

WPQT to qualify 6G Weder in 6G Test position - can be done with same cosumables as for 6GR Test Coupon ( LB52U & LB52 ).
2nd side dont exist either ( backgouging/second side grinding not possible/required )

6GR welder qualified with such restriction but his qualification range not same as for 6G Welder !!
To me 6GR welder is better skilled and qualified compared to 6G welder.

Test position - 6G / 6GR-same
Joint Design- 6G- Single V with NO Hi-Low but 6GR - Single Bevel with stimulated hi-low+restriction ring.

I think if AWS & ASME Committe review together better and clear answer can be acheived.

Hope experts like Mr. Lawrence, Shane, Al can guide me to better understanding as well.

By eekpod

Date 03-12-2013 10:51

Nalla,
Question- Have you run a PQR for this or are you using/assuming it's pre-qualified?

I ask becasue when I wrote my responce yesterday I was thinking you were using a pre-qualified WPS. You must use a backing or backgouge to stay within the pre-qualifed WPS.

By Nalla

Date 03-13-2013 01:29

Dear Eekpod
I did qualify PQR