Hello everybody:
In a contract involving piping construction work, our company contracted the piping fabrication work to a Contractor “A”. This Contractor “A” subcontracted for such purpose to the company “B”. The subcontractor “B” will proceed to perform the Welding Procedure Specifications and qualify the welders and the welding procedures by the PQRs. The Quality Control System of the subcontractor “B” will be carried out by the company “C”.
My question is: who does certify the company “C” to perform that qualifications of welders and procedures?
We are located in Central America and we know about the International Listing of Accredited Testing Facilities of the AWS.
What would be a dependable way to verify the veracity of the documents that certify the company "C"? If the name of the Accredited Testing Facility that accredits (or Certifies) the documentation of the company "C" does not appears in the AWS list, what can we do?
Any comment on this subject will be highly appreciated.
You stated this was piping. Is the work that will fall under ASME 31.1 or 31.3 or is this structure work. For the B31.1 and B31.3 this would be ASME Section IX and structural would be AWS if that is what the contract specification calls for.
Hello everybody:
I think you are right. I am talking about the construction of a pressure pipe (penstock) for a hydropower plant. This work will be done under ASME Section IX. Said it so, the question remains the same: who does certify the company “C” to perform that qualifications of welders and procedures?
Does exist organizations endorsed by ASME that certify to companies or individuals in order that they can achieve the tasks of certify welders and welding procedures? If the answer to the latest is yes, who are these organizations?
Once again, thanks. Esker!
"Quote"
Said it so, the question remains the same: who does certify the company “C” to perform that qualifications of welders and procedures?
They do it themselves
Does exist organizations endorsed by ASME that certify to companies or individuals in order that they can achieve the tasks of certify welders and welding procedures?
No. There are no companies endorsed by ASME that "Certify" the companies, individuals, or welders. The code you will be constructing the piping to will be ASME B31.1. The welding and welder qualification will be done to ASME Section IX. The company doing the construction will need to have the proper procecures and their welders qualified to those procedures. It is up to the piping owner to be sure the contractors meet the requirements. There are third party companies who can do that, but it is YOUR responsibility to be sure the contractor has the ability to meet your requirements.
YOU NEED TO READ ASME SECTION IX It will tell you everything about what needs to be done and who is responsible for what.
There are companies who have been doing work for years and do not know or care about having the proper welding documents. But they will tell you they have certified welders working for them.
When you ask a contractor for their welding quality plan and they give you a folder with WPS, PQR's and WPQ with continutiy logs you can bet the company knows what they are doing. These are documents they should be able to provide in a matter of minutes off a computer. If they tell you they will get them to you in a week, check the paper carefully for pencil whipping
A good way out of this is next time include in your contract that no work may be sub-contracted without written approval of the Owner company. Years ago this happened at my company. The Prime contractor proposed a sub-contractor to do the welding. We, the Owner would retain the inspection rights and did supply the radiographic contractor. We witnessed the welder testing to pre-qualified procedures. I, my boss, and the prime contractor went to the sub-contractor's shop. We discussed the work, the Standard to be used was API 1104. When the API 1104 was mentioned the sub-contractor's eyes glazed over. They had never heard of or worked to that Standard.
On our way home my boss asked me what I thought of the sub-contractor. I told him the truth, the shop did not have the background, experience, knowledge, or equipment to do the work. He asked me to put into writing which I was very glad to do. Some of the valves weighed in at over 10 tons, just the valve. The shop had a 5 ton overhead crane and no head height in the shop to accommodate portable lifting equipment. The Prime was allowed to use the sub. Total disaster.
Always retain the rights to approve the sub's. Some one may over ride you but at least have an opinion.
Briefly:
Under the auspices of ASME, the contractor actually doing the welding must qualify their own welding procedures, i.e., it cannot be subcontracted to a third party. ASME B&PV Section IX is the governing document for how to qualify welding and brazing procedures and welders and brazers. Section IX is not a design or construction standard. The ASME B&PV Code is composed of many sections each dealing with a different aspect the design, fabrication, and inspection of pressure vessels and piping. In your case it sounds as if Section II would be used for materials, Section V would be used for NDT, Section IX to qualify the WPS and welders, and B31.1 or B31.3 for the design and construction of the pentstocks.
Once the welding procedure specifications (WPS) have been qualified by the contractor, the contractor doing the actual welding must qualify their welders, i.e., their employees. This function cannot be subcontacted out.
The contractor can hire a consultant/laboratory to work with them to qualify the WPSs and the welders, but the contractor must be present to supervise the actual welding of the test coupons for both qualifying the WPSs and the welders. The individuals welding the test coupons for qualifying the WPSs must be a company employee, i.e., a third party cannot weld the test coupon.
The consultant/laboratory hired to help the contractor to qualify the WPSs and the welders can perform all laboratory testing, i.e., NDT and mechanical testing, required to evaluate the test coupons that were previously welded by the contractor’s welders.
The ATF cannot qualify the procedure, i.e., weld the test coupons with ATF personnel. Nor can the ATF qualify the contractor’s welders unless there is a company representative present at the ATF’s facilities or in the field to witness the welding of the test coupons by contractor's welders (employees).
In specific cases, the contractor can use Standard Welding Procedures (SWPS) purchased from the AWS, but the construction code may prohibit or may not recognize the SWPS. In other words, just because the SWPS is listed by ASME Section IX, it doesn’t mean the construction code, i.e., ASME B31.3, will permit the practice.
SWPSs are not qualified if notch toughness testing is required by the applicable ASME construction code, i.e., ASME B&PC Code Section I, Section III, Section VIII, B31.1, B31.3, etc. In other words the use of the SWPS is not permitted.
SWPSs are not qualified for applications where the welds must be post weld heat treated. Again, the applicable construction code will specify whether PWTH is required.
In summary; the contractor actually performing the on-site welding is responsible to qualify the WPSs and the welders. A third party or ATF is not required unless the contract specifies a third party must witness the qualification of the WPS and the welders.
Contractors on the same site cannot share qualified WPSs unless they are divisions of the same parent company. Contractors cannot share quality control manuals. Each contractor must have heir own QC manual that must be acceptable to the prime contractor and meets code requirements. Generally speaking the Owner will review the documentation submitted by the prime contractor. The typical documentation includes the quality control manual, the written practice for NDT, welding procedures and supporting PQRs, NDT procedures, etc. It is then the prime contractor' responsibility to ensure each subtier contractor has systems and documentation in place that complies with the documentation approved by the Owner.
As an example intended to illustrate what I have said I offer the following: If the Prime Contractor's approved QC manual states all welders and procedures will be qualified and certified to ASME Section ABCD, all NDT will be qualified and certified to meet ASNT Standard ZZXX, all truck tires will be painted red, and all truck drivers must wear purple hard hats. As approved by the Owner, all subcontractors, i.e., lower tier contractors, must comply to the same requirements as stated in the prime contractor's quality program. Each subtier contractor must have a QC manual that includes the requirements that were approved by the Owner.
The prime contractor is responsible to the Owner and is responsible to ensure each subtier contractor meets the requirements of the contract and code. Each contractor must provide a quality control system to ensure the work they do meets the project specification and the applicable code. The Owner usually engages the services of an engineering firm (the Engineer) to provide oversight and to verify the design, project specifications, and code requirements have been met. The Owner also has the perogative to engage the services of a third party to provide quality assurance to verify the contractors on the site have meet their obligations. If a nonconformance is discovered, the third party reports it to the Owner and the Engineer. The Engineer is usually given the authority to act in behalf of the Owner.
Best regards - Al
Hello Euskera;
Is "gtaw" as sarcastic as I am?
You have to exercise due diligence when hiring a company that provides third party services or NDT. Hiring a firm to provide services is similar to hiring a person to fill a position in your company. You review the individual’s resume or his CV. You assess his education, training, and experience to determine if he has the qualifications you seek in an employee. It is no different when you hire a company to provide any service. You check to see if they have a staff with the proper education, training, experience, qualifications, and certifications.
You check to see if the company has staff members that are full time employees that have been with the firm for several years or is the company a “body shop” that hires people to fill positions on an “as needed” basis. You check to see if the company has experience on projects similar to yours. What type of work have they performed in the past?
In most cases the services provided by the TPI require licensing or certifications. If they are providing engineering services you should be able to verify their engineers are registered and licensed to practice. The company should be able to provide copies of the qualifications and certifications for each individual that will be performing inspections and performing NDT. The TPI should provide written procedures for qualifying and certifying their NDT personnel. They should be able to provide you with copies of their written NDT procedures for the types of NDT they will be performing on the site.
If you are considering hiring a company you should ask them to provide the contact information for the project manager of their most recent job. A quick telephone call to the project manager of the previous jobs will tell the story of whether they performed up to the customer’s expectations or if they fell on their face and failed to perform.
I am not aware of any certification program for companies that provide the type of services you are seeking. A company accredited by the AWS as an Accredited Test Facility offers no assurance they can provide the type of services you are seeking. The ATF is only accredited to test welders. They are not necessarily qualified to develop welding procedures or perform NDT. Some ATFs may have the personnel and experience to provide a full range of services, but simply being certified as an ATF is no assurance they have those capabilities.
You should insist on reviewing the resumes or CV of every person the company providing TPI and NDT services expects to put on your site. You should also have the authority to veto any person that does not have the appropriate qualifications, certifications, or related job experience.
Best regards - Al
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