I get what you and Al are saying but if it is like this and the owner, client, head cheese is supposed to supply the wps, etc., then apparently the AWS, ASME and API or somebody is not doing their job policing and enforcing it. As I RARELY run across anybody, (A) that has a clue (B) wants me to test to their qualifications on a particular job, qualifications when asked they get the deer in the headlight look.
As I said, real world and code world are two different things. I'm out here to do the job right, try and make chump change while doing it and my job is not to police contractors, essentially cut my own throat. People out there want it done in a certain way or want to be code police then start with the large contractors, use your money. I'm willing to test for jobs according to their "code" but as I said, 95% are clueless. I worked a job once. All welded uphill, looked good. They (contractor) screwed up. They had their pipefitter come in, change around bunch of 6 inch that was routed wrong(because of their hourly fitter...oh, excuse me electrician...or was he a fitter???). He then proceeded to weld it back together with a Lincoln "Home Depot" 135 wire welder. They called me later, had me come out to put on a weld -o- let. Job boss asked what I thought about the guys welds, I told him they were atrocious. Looked like tree warts. They then screwed me out of $7000. I called the codes department in the town they did the building in. Guess what, he tells me, "they're supposed to have a third party inspection on that pipe". No way in God's Universe would the welds this guy put down pass, never. I don't think anything was ever done about the tree wart welds. The town inspector probably "looked into it" until his pocket was lined or something.
Sounds to me like the system does not work. To much dependence on contractors to do the right thing, heck, 30% of the time they cannot be depended upon to actually pay their small subs let alone care about what code it was welded to. If everything I am doing, millions in insurance, wasted money on papers, tests is all for not then why even bother? Just sell my truck, throw a mig in my little car and go with it. No taxes on tools I've already paid taxes on, no taxes on income, no insurance bills or any of that non essential stuff. I know several that do it near me, make better money than me. If I'm trying to do it right and I'll just end up in jail because of Al then what is the sense in it? If not for guys like me trying to to it the right way hacks would run amuck, how many jobs have I done the right way and kept the guy off the chill pipe job that just "butts the two ends together and runs a single pass" or the guy out of the church welding gas pipe that "is only 2 psi". Regardless of pressure, location or content my welds are taken seriously.
Another job not worth doing. Try to do things right and the only people that succeed are the shytebirds and hacks, scammers, b.s'ers and the like while the experts in the "code world" sit up on their high horses making rules that they have no way to enforce.
Not mad at you or Al, just venting I guess. The "Code people" relying on contractors to do the ethical thing, when money is involved the ethical thing is whatever saves them a buck. When a guy like me comes along and gets his own wps, tests to them for a certain p material to have something that proves that yes, he has tested to XXX code, passed with flying colors and yet is made out to be the bad guy and thrown in the same pool as the hack who has nothing at all.
I have to say, honestly, this has to be one of THE most f'd up, unregulated screwy arse industries in the world, or at least in this country. If the contractor is supposed to relay to me what code then apparently AWS, ASME and API have not enlightened them as to the importance of this or if they have the contractors don't care. The only jobs I've been on where they called out a code have been for the places I weld gas pipe. API and that's becaue they get audited every year. Everybody else is "certified welder". They don't know what it means and frankly, on my measley income compared to AWS, ASME and API folks it's not my job to inform or educate them. Now, I can dig thru prints and see if the engineer actually calls out any type of code but when it comes to chill piping around here I'm lucky I have got the little squiggly lines on the prints, let alone actual code that it is supposed to be welded to. If I find the code then I can inform them of the "correct way" to go about having me "certified" on their job where they will tell me that they no longer need my services, call the next guy and that will be it. In the real world they don't want to hear that they must go have their own procedures written for this job, test welders to these procedures for this particular job before they can start putting in "just a water line".
I wonder, have the folks that run AWS, ASME and API been in the real world? Honestly, have they worked the jobs like I have to work with the contractors MOST guys in this industry have to work with or have they been hand coddled in "strict code environments" for their whole career? In the correct world every mechanic puts back every single bolt and it is put in place properly, threaded correctly and then torqued properly. In the real world we have what is know as "frodis" bolts or screws, I've seen guys put engine mounts on in difficult places and get it cross threaded. A 1/2" air impact and it was run up and torqued to German torque. His quote on the cross threading, "cross threading is better than locktite". Correct world and real world.
I'm trying to work in "Correct World" but the reality is, I live in a real world. If I'm trying to get some sort of paperwork for a carbon steel, according to ASME and I'm still going to be branded as the bad guy then why bother with it at all. I really appreciate all the opinions and guys on here and respect as well but sometimes I wonder if you guys have been out of the real world for to long? I've got my AWS paperwork, but apparently they don't mean squat in code world when I go work for any contractor who needs an AWS welder certified on carbon steel. I know my API stuff is in order as they are the same procedures as the places I work for.
Trying to do it right but learning it's becoming a Not worth trying situation. I talk to a bunch of other guys, local and abroad and we all talk about this same type of stuff so this is not just my opinion on the "Code World", "Real World", guess I'm just one to bring it out into the open without worries of any goon squads heading to my house. LOL!!
Okay, Come on Shawn. I've sat back and followed this without posting because ASME and API are not really my specialties. I'm a structural guy though I have welded to ASME and API on many occassions. I thought you were having a quantry moment that would pass with a little time and reason to get you back on track.
Now, you know as well as I or anyone else here that there are always fly-by-night, shade tree mechanics/welders, wanna-be's, that will cut any and all corners to make as much as possible off the job and make themselves look good because they got the job done so much faster than those other guys (the ones who follow all the rules and take care to make sure all is right in codeland). But, every code has different perspectives. There are good reasons pipe codes are different than structural codes and pressure pipe is different than flowing pipe. So many things have been taken into account. I will admit, some codes could use some changes. They appear to be behind the times and/or allow for procedures that many of us have a hard time swallowing. But, different applications with different research and usage records to justify the procedures as regulated by the applicable code are there for the protection of everyone: customer, General Contractor, Fabricator, Welder, but most importantly- the PUBLIC.
BUT, who is the last man standing when something does go wrong, which has happened plenty often of late in refineries, on pipelines, buildings collapsing, cranes toppling, etc? When the police knock on the door with crimminal warrants issued because it was found contractors had cut corners and you are in court 20 years from now how ridiculous are these arguements going to look from the witness box? The 'Real World' versus 'Code World' is not the argument! The question is, can you stand before the Judge of ALL the Earth and truly say, I did everything I could to the best of my ability and knowledge to follow all the applicable codes and protect human life as well as give the customer the best possible product for his money.
There is no 'Real World' or 'Code World' question. There are 'CHEATS, THIEVES, and MURDERERS' and there are 'HONEST CRAFTSMEN, CONTRACTORS'. You have to decide which side of the line you stand on. Which side of the legal courtroom you will be sitting on. What answer you are going to give WHEN people die (not 'IF').
You may be able to say, none of my work has ever failed. And I say 'YET'. You may not live long enough to see it fail. But that doesn't mean you did it right and to the best of your ability and honestly made your living from this honorable profession.
Don't fall into the trap of pitting inspectors against fabricators, code against 'reality', etc. The battle is right against wrong. The battle is greed against honesty. The battle is self against righteousness.
Do right Shawn.
Have a Great Day, Brent
I'm not going to do it wrong, if that's what they want I'll come home and watch the cooking channel.
You do not have to worry about a goon squad coming after you. See, these groups work by consensuses so by the time they get together, have a meeting on what size of baseball bat's and the voting that will have to go on and then you have the wood side vs. the aluminum side then they agree they will use a wood bat, then you have the kneecap side vs. the smack you in the back of the head bunch. You are looking at 2 years just to get agreement they will come after you with a wooden bat and kneecap you. Then you start all over on who they will send after you. It could take 6 years to decide to get someone to come after you. Then they have to get the company members to agree to pay the goons to come out an kneecap you. Yea, good luck on that.
These groups represent their industry members. It is up to the industry to police itself. If a member company agrees it will adopt the use of ASME, API, AWS, etc it is up to that company to see the rules are followed. The only enforcement will come from the company when they discover the rules are not followed. When OSHA, PHMSA, EPA or the myriad of federal and state regulators come out of the woodwork when a failure occurs. And regardless of what the company people tell you, the regulators will not be after one individual welder or inspector. They may drag you into deposition but when it gets to that level, little ole you are pretty much off the hook.
What is comes down to is how you feel about doing it right. Is for the $$$, then what the heck. Do the best you can and go on. There are a lot of individuals and companies that know how to do their work right. They just do not. What can you do. You have two choices, do it the way they want, or move on.
hahahaha Kahunna. I was just trying to inject some humor...you did it way better.
I do agree with Shawn on how screwed up it gets. 85% of the time I ask to be put in touch with the engineer to clarify the mud. 50% of the time they cannot do so without being led by the nose to the water trough. 99% of the time the contractors are clueless about the job they are on. RECENT example: This is an AISC job on a federally funded project....who is your inspector, where is your spec book. We have went through the specs, there is no inspection..?!?! Ummm Ya there is going to be some, I would like to speak with him and the engineer before we start...(really bad fits). There ain't no inspection lets get this welded up now, we are behind. The code is clear, the quals are not however, unlimited certs should cover the bases....grrrrrrrrr. The best you may get on the paperwork is welder shall be certified D1.1 with 70xx electrodes, no positions, no thickness ranges nothing. Ok carry on. Well three weeks later the guy comes to look it all over for doing the UT, He looked at my papers and a few welds and said not worried about this guy.....yea well. I have been on at least a dozen jobs in the last year that SHOULD have third party inspection, nada. I could send these guys a cert that said I could chew bubblegum and pack it in the joint as long as the Easter Bunny was on my shoulder watching and they would NEVER know the difference. If I sat and waited for a company to pop up with thier ducks in a row or even the willingness to listen and get it straight....I would be on the street with a sign (will weld for food). I got no problems with inspection of my work, if you can talk to the guy beforehand and clear up any questions is almost always goes smoothly.
As far as the most of the world out there is concerned: Certified Welder means that you went through the buds school of welding and you can weld on the space shuttle or a plastic coke bottle....everything you do will be perfect and you are all knowing. You are just a step below a brain surgeon or something.....it is ridiculous. Sorry for the double down on rant...it is really frustrating....part of the game I just could do without.
Carry on, I am getting some insight on this thread.
Yep, you pretty much said what I am thinking. Easter bunny, chewing bubble gum, you got that cert too?? LOL!!
OK, so now that you have vented your frustrations, I hope you can sit down, collect your thoughts, and think straight again.
As for the “Real World”; you have to be honest with yourself before you can carry on an honest conversation. The real world in which codes and standards are ignored are ticking time bombs that end up costing everyone huge sums of money because the natural reaction of politicians is to develop “new rules to ensure this will not happen again.” The truth of the matter is that the majority of catastrophic mishaps involve the congruence of events where the entities involved did not do their job and did not meet the requirements of the existing legal statutes, codes, or drawings.
The organizations such as API, ASME, NFPA, and AWS are not charged with policing the work performed by various contractors or engineering firms. They do not check the welder’s qualifications or whether the contractor had WPSs on the job site. The contractor is responsible to meet the applicable statues, codes, drawings, etc. Many codes do not obligate the Owner to provide verification inspection (some ASME piping codes are the exception). The responsible Owner will retain the services of an engineering firm for the purpose of design and to ensure the work is completed properly. Each municipality that has adopted a building code has someone that is entrusted to check the work performed by the contractor is per the applicable code, but in many cases they are not experts in every construction discipline. They depend on the engineer retained by the Owner to provide the oversight necessary to comply with the appropriate building code or statute that has jurisdiction over the project.
You have heard it from me before, 10% of those in any profession are experts that excel at what they do, 80% do an adequate job, and 10% should be doing something else. Usually the lower 10% get fired, run off the job, or put out of business.
Do you own a truck that has to meet federal requirements for hazardous materials, driver rest periods, etc.? Why do you follow the rules? Fear of risk! You do what is required to minimize risk. You do not want to risk getting caught and incur the fines and penalties that are assessed when you do get caught.
How does our system function? FEAR! Fear of being sued and fear of huge judgments that can put a company out of business! Some companies look at penalties as a cost of doing business, but that is very short sighted and they do not stay in business very long.
Construction is very high risk venture. As a result, it is very expensive to purchase insurance and bonds. New companies are started every day and everyday a certain percentage is going to go belly up for any number of reasons. The reasons for going out of business are many, but common reasons include being sued, bad business decisions such as growing too fast, running out of cash, failure to secure the necessary insurance or performance bonds. For a very few, construction offers good returns on their investment and for many others it is a quick trip to the poor house. Some companies are revived under new ownership and some companies simply put themselves out of their misery and fold up their tent to do something else with their time.
Construction involves risk. Those companies that thrive usually do everything in their power to reduce risk. They take steps to minimize risk and financial ruin. They chose their projects carefully so not to overextend their resources or capability. They do things right the first time. They construct things as per the approved drawings, they meet the requirements of the applicable statutes, they do the best they can to build a reputation for doing things right. They work with reputable contractors and owners that mitigate risk. They recognize their limitations and hire reputable experts to help them when they do not have the expertise in-house. They shun those projects that are high risk and where there is a high probability of failure.
Those individuals that think they can outsmart the system do get away with their shenanigans for a while. Shoddy workmanship, late delivery, use of substandard materials, etc. serves as the basis of their acquired reputation. If their reputation is bad, their client list usually consists of the bad actors as well. Ultimately, the brown stuff hits the fan and everyone suffers the consequence. When I say everyone, I mean everyone, including the building official that didn’t do his job.
The "real world"; it is a cruel place where the smart ones survive and the others usually do not survive for long. It is a case of Darwin at work.
People that have been wronged hire experts and lawyers to recoup their loses. The Hired Guns understand the real world all too well. They are the tracker that looks for signs and interpret those signs to the benefit of their client. They are the abattoir that put the malicious or suffering contractor out of their misery. It a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
Happy Easter. Don't eat the brown ones, they may not be candy!
Best regards - Al
Happy Easter back Al!
"cross threading is better than locktite"
I don't care who ya are, that right there is FUNNY!
