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Hi All,
Have any one who try or done fillet weld leg length 8 mm single pass in 2F position with FCAW-G wire size 1/16”( 1.6 mm) diameter ,kindly help and share.
Information: i use FCAW-G wire 1/16”(1.6 mm) welding fillet weld leg length 8 mm by 1 pass in 2F Position. I think this should not problem with code required (AWS D1.1 2010). But QC always saying that 8 mm leg length must do 2 pass. 1 pass is not acceptable. Is it correct?
Thanks,
Winai
8mm = 5/16"
Yeah we can do that in a single pass with 1/16" FCAW in 2F, any larger we go to a multipass fillet weld.
Khun Winai,
You are the Welding Engineer - you tell QC what size fillet weld is acceptable, not the other way around.
You know I live in Thailand so I can comment fairly - most QC in Thailand do not have a welding background, they just have a better education.
As John said, 8 mm is probably the maximum you want to go single-pass.
But, ultimately it is up to you.
If you have welders that can achieve sound fusion with a 10 mm or 12 mm single pass fillet then you can use that - no problem,
Cheers,
Shane
Yes Khun shane, im welding engineer but i should cooperate with QC too. the QC will coordinate with the owner representative inspector ,so if they're not explain properly to the owner the job can be rejected.
Thanks,
winai
C'mon WINAI!!!! Shane is absolutely right!!!
Grow a pair already for crying out loud!!! Don't let QC intimidate you with that thought... If the QC or owner rep challenges your preference, then simply show that you can weld it in one pass, and also tell them that if you use more than one pass when it isn't necessary then the base metal adjacent to the weld, the HAZ will be larger in width which is what you want to minimize as much as possible in order to minimize distortion...
Do you have any reference books on welding metallurgy? If you do, then simply find the chapter and verse to show them what you're trying to avoid... And then explain that the possibility of having too much distortion may result in increased job costs if repairs are required... Don't let them push you around when you have "reference" weapons at your disposal to fight back with and help them understand why you believe the work should be done to your preference so that they'll accept your reasoning.
Respectfully,
Henry
I forgot to add this: If you have a copy of "Design of Welded Structures" by Omar Blodgett Which is all things considered one of the best books covering structural Welding Design out in print... Then all you need to do is to go to section 7.4, Find the heading:" Determining Weld size" and then you can use it as reference to justify your claim to the owner rep and even QC if they'll even bother to look @ the book!
So go for it WINAI!!!
Respectfully,
Henry
I would take into consideration the actually wire that is being used. Some 1/16" gassed FCAW wires can put in a larger single pass fillet than others. I wouldn't want to do that weld size in production with ESAB 710 X-M (E71T-1M), but with might with another wire. I have used some Lincoln E70T-1 that would put in pretty large single passes nicely.
Khun Winai,
See AWS D1.1 2010 Table 3.7
Maximum Single Pass Fillet weld for FCAW in the Horizontal position is actually 10 mm (3/8")
Regards,
Shane
You're right Shane... It's been 3/8" for many moons now since I observed it to be so all the way back to D1.1 2002 on page 69...
Table 3.7 may be on a different page in D1.1 2010.
Respectfully,
Henry
Hey Winai,
You can alway deviate from the code if you get Customer agreement.
Use your knowledge, come up with sound Engineering reasoning...then validate through testing.
This may be very expensive to requalify. You've got to look at the overall cost of going beyond 8mm single pass weld versus time saved.
Tyrone
Tyrone,
Did you read the posts above you prior to responding ?
AWS D1.1 allows single pass up to 10 mm (3/8") so he doesn't have to re-qualify anything,
Regards,
Shane
Sorry Shane,
I was in a rush when I threw in my 2 cents.
Tyrone
As Shane noted, 8mm is acceptable without testing. However to confirm that the welder is placing a sound weld, a simple test can be performed by welding the 8mm single pass fillet weld and then sawing the joint, polishing the end cut, and using a macro-etching solution to etch the weld. This can be done in the QC or QA's presence and assure this person who may be questioning whether a 8mm fillet weld can be placed in one pass effectively, that it can be done. Penetration must exist to the root, but not necessarily beyond.
Winai,
The bottom line is: a 3/8 fillet is most definitely acceptable per D1.1. And, 3/8" fillets are easily obtainable with the 1/16" wire you mention.
The question may be rather WE are missing some information that may bring a different set of perameters into focus that restricts that. Like to possiblity that the material may have engineering considerations that would make it wise to restrict weld size, Such as usage of some of the QST Steels??
Maybe some application and materials information would enlighten us.
Have a Great Day, Brent
By Superflux 
Date 04-12-2013 15:10
Edited 04-12-2013 15:15
I'm guessing that the QC might be basing their comments due to knowledge of the welders' skill and capabilities to maintain the procedural parameters and fillet weld profile.
Depending on the thickness of the material, 1.6mm wire is not that easy for everyone to manipulate in the 2F position. Gravity can wreak havoc on the lessor talented.
I feel for the in house QC as they are often given responsibilities above and beyond what I would deem ethical especially in other countries.
They are often a combination of welders, engineers, supervisors, trainers, chief cook and floor sweeper.
Hi
Yes, I am with Brent on this one. While the code allowable in D1.1 for pre-qualified WPS's is a maximum size of 10mm, as per referred table, this may not actually be the situation. Possibly the welding is being done to qualified welding procedures, then section 4 of D1.1 is applicable. If the fillet welds were qualified with a fillet weld procedure, then the maximum single pass qualified is the size used in the test coupon. If this is the case, then Winai needs to check his PQR. Without all the facts, it is a little speculative.
Regards
Niekie
Once again the subject of large single pass fillet welds raises its ugly head.
While the code may permit the deposition of large single pass fillet welds, it is prudent for the contractor to qualify their welders by requiring them to deposit the largest single pass fillet weld that will be used in production. It is better to identify a problem and address it than to have a client identify the problem at a later date and incur the cost of rework, missed ship dates, and the loss of reputation as a quality fabricator.
I was involved in qualifying some procedures for aluminum and stainless to carbon steel a couple of months ago. AWS D1.1 and D1.2 were the governing standards. D1.2 requires the WPS be qualified for both grooves and fillet welds if fillets are to be used in production. I can tell you that at least ten fillet samples were welded and fractured before we started getting samples worth considering for full evaluation.
The contractor insisted on using GMAW in the pulse mode. I feel that was not the smartest move, but I wasn't calling the shots. I just send the client the bill for all the testing and to witness all the false starts once the paperwork is complete. Sometimes they listen to advice, sometimes they don't. I make more money when they don't take my advice.
Best regards - Al
Good morning Al,
The D1.2 is requiring groove and fillet tests for fillet WPS? I read this in Inspection Trends too. I'm studying to do this endorsement exam in a couple of weeks and still can't see this in the 2008 version of the D1.2 code.
I understand the types and purposes of tests, tension for strength, soundness for fillets, etc. When getting to the WPS requirements for fillet welds, it reads: "3.15.2 The following are required tests for fillet welds:", and only mentions visual, macroetch and fracture (or root bend for the option, or break for castings).
(To top off my frustration, I lost the receipt for my first pdf download of the code book and had to pay and download it again to get another receipt. Like a dummy, I did not register before making the first purchase. I have 4 copies now, just to make sure.)
Respectfully,
Rick
By 803056 
Date 04-15-2013 15:37
Edited 04-15-2013 15:42
Rick;
You have to pick your way through the clauses on qualification very carefully. The need to qualify the fillets separately from the groove isn't in plain sight.
I don't have the code with me while I'm on the road. All I can do is walk you through the reasoning. First the code makes a statement that the mechanical properties are established by qualifying the WPS on a grooved plate. There are provisions to use either a CJP or a PJP from which you extract the reduced section tensile specimens and the bend specimens. Next it tells you to qualify the procedures for the fillet welds. Notice there is no provision that states a WPS qualified by the grooved joint detail is also qualifies the WPS for fillet welds.
There is some logic behind this. If the contractor qualifies the WPS using fillets only, there is no mechanism to determine the tensile strength, i.e., the compatibility between the base metal and the filler metal, when you perform the requisite macroetch of the filet cross section. The only thing the macroetch shows is that there is fusion to the root and there are no obvious cracks, etc. Check the acceptance criteria for the macroecth. It doesn't require much other than to establish size limitations for the fillet welds.
Best regards - Al
Hi to all, Thanks!
I,m just come back from songkran festival!
Some information, Steel grade mostly use to weld with this 8 mm(5/16”) single pass isAH36,DH36,EH36 and actualy I can weld until 9 mm single pass with wire 1.6 mm(1/16”) diameter. But to sure that the weld leg length not undersize. I have set the limit is 8 mm(5/16”) maximum single pass. if more than that I ask welder to weld multipass. My welding history since 2001, I joined company as a welder. Welding supervisor tell me to welding 3 pass with this 8 mm leg length. I ask him why we need a lot of pass welding? Answer! small wire cant weld big pass coz big pass not strong. That time I use 1.2 mm wire. 2003 , I suggest reduce the pass to 2 pass for 8 mm leg length. 2008 i start studying with AWS and this time i have learn a lot about welding then 2009 ,I have try 8 mm leg length single pass by use wire 1.6 mm(1/16”) welding parameters A 300, V 30 , speed 260 mm/min Heat input 2 kj/mm. I have done it more projects. This thing will happen just few weeks ago Qc told my welder that 8 mm single pass not acceptable.
Winai
Get some scrap and fit up a T joint, weld your 8mm in one pass, saw the joint 90° to the weld and you can show that you are indeed getting fusion at the root. If the legs are the correct size and the profile is acceptable(no overlap, no undercut...etc) then that should prove to whomever that it is possible and can be done with acceptable results. Good Luck.
Hi John,
I did weld test pieces more than 50 pcs already. and cut view macro cross section everything was good. and now i prepared everything to show them if they will insist it.
Thanks,
Winai
The macro will show whether you get fusion to the root, but it is simply a snap shot of one location. I prefer to break the fillet for the full length. You can easily identify any areas of incomplete fusion, slag inclusions, etc. as well as whether there is fusion to the root for the entire length of the weld. Other than identifying the depth of fusion on the fusion faces and the size of the HAZ, I see little purpose for the macro-etch test other than it is a code requirement.
I admit to being a little biased with regards to fillet welds. I have had many bad experiences with incomplete fusion in the root.
Even when qualifying fillet procedures I insist on breaking the portions of weld not used for the macro-etch to verify the welder was able to fuse the root. We usually have to weld a number of samples before the welder has the technique under control and he is able to produce acceptable results in a consistent manner.
Best regards - Al
Hi Winai
Can you confirm if you are welding to a pre-qualified WPS, or a WPS qualified to section 4 of D1.1?
Regards
Niekie
Hi Niekie,
Yes this is WPS qualified by clause 4.( 2G & 3G plate)
Regards,
winai
Hi Winai
OK - Not qualified by fillet weld then. (2G & 3G) So my interpretation is that as long as you are staying within the qualified variable ranges as stated in Table 4.5 and 4.6, then you are not limited to weld size. Obviously, this does not mean you have no limits. Once you have reached the maximum Amps (Wire feed speed) as per range, and minimum travel speed, then that will be your maximum fillet size allowed. So, just stay within your qualified ranges, and see what the maximum sized fillet is that you can deposit.
As stated by some of the other people, make sure your welders can consistently deposit good quality fillet welds of the maximum size you want to weld. (It sounds like you already have, if you have done 50 test coupons!)
Hope that helps.
Regards
Niekie
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