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Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / Correct application of the definition "Faying Surfaces"
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 15:39
Slip Critical joint at diagonal bracing(back to back angles and gusset plate @ each end)
Painted job so that requires masking off areas to not receive paint
A325 bolts throughout

There is a difference of opinion here at the shop as to what items and surfaces within this joint to withold the paint from.

What say ye?
(I'm reserving my opinion for later so not to skew any answers in my direction)
I'll elaborate later as to why this question has popped up after all of these years.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 05-17-2013 16:29
Wouldn't the masking only be necessary in areas that are to be welded after paint?

Tim
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 16:46
Hi Tim,
These are bolted connections where slippage within the plies of the joint would be considered detrimental to the structure.(aka Slip-Critical connx)
RCSC and the AISC Manual of Steel Construction has definitions explaing faying surfaces and the areas to be masked off(no loose mill scale, no over spray, no oils, etc)...in this case the surfaces will be shot blasted to acheive a slip co-efficient required and then masked off around the connections and painted. The whole objective is to minimize field touch painting around these joints. We have notes on the drawings telling the paint department "No paint within 3" of all holes".(just the Slip-Critical)
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 05-17-2013 17:01
John, not knowing all the details about the joint situation you're talking about, you may want to read, RCSC, Specification for Structural Joints Using High-Strength Bolts, December 31, 2009, Pg 16.2-18 & 19, 3.2.2 commentary.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 18:19
Got it, read it, and I'm pretty sure that I understand it. Just want to hear someone else's opinion of what "faying surfaces" entails.
Joint in the example above is a diagonal brace between the gusset plate on the bottom of a beam and the gusset plate on the bottom of a column. The brace is made up of back to back angles and is bolted at each end with a double row of A325 bolts. The joint is circled up and noted as "slip-critical".
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 18:26
Ok since I'm not getting alot of bites which of these would you consider the most correct:

1) no paint, only on the area between the plies of material that is bolted(inside faces of the two angles, and both sides of the gusset plate)

2) no paint, anywhere within the plies of material that is bolted(from the underside of the bolt head all the way through the joint to the underside of the nut)
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 18:29
I should also qualify that the paint being used is not considered qualified as having the correct slip-coefficent and cannot be used in this situation. I realize and have used paints in the past in these areas that did qualify and met all of that criteria, but this paint does not.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-17-2013 18:37
I'm not sure I'm following you John.  Just spotted this and am a little confused as to what you are asking.  But, my first question, are you using the newest AISC/RCSC? (14th Edition)  Or the last one (13th Edition)?  There are several changes and I don't have my 14th here in front of me.

My first impression is that it 'should be' the area where materials are in contact with each other.  If I understand your description correctly that would mean no paint on the 'inside' of the two angle legs where they come in contact with the plate (on each side) that they bolt to as well as no paint on either side of the plate where the angle legs are against them.  The outside of the angle can be painted as I recall even where the washers, bolt head, and/or nut are in contact with the outside surface of the angles. 

The idea is to stop any slippage between the angle and the plate at the contacting/faying surface.  Having paint under the nut or bolt head does not effect the clamping force between the members ( WAIT A MINUTE, that brought something to mind.  I'm going to have to see if I can find it.  Back in a minute).

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-17-2013 18:43
Using the 14th edition...waiting for you to return. Someone here was trying to exclude paint from everywhere as in the #2 example given above.
The contact surfaces with in the joint as in your explanation matches mine in #1 example.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-17-2013 22:07
Besides my post postioned below here, I talked with two other people here on this job and we are all in agreement. 

Sounds like someone is trying to inforce unreasonable restrictions on your work.  The surface under the head of the bolt and under the washer or nut is not an issue.  Only the 'Faying Surfaces'.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 05-18-2013 15:04 Edited 05-18-2013 15:15
I'm away from my code library at the moment but since John mentioned the issue with the paint, I would probably not have any paint under the bold head or nut area because of tightening requirements.  That's just my initial thought, I would have to research it.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-17-2013 19:00
Okay, If you are asking about the surface on contact between the head of the bolt and/or nut to the leg of the angle that comes into contact with the plate, then MY OPINION is that it may be painted.  When you read throught the entire RCSC and pull together all references for 'Slip Critical' connections and also the definition given for 'Faying Surfaces' then the only place to be kept free is that area between angles and plate.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 05-21-2013 22:15
I agree with Brent, painting under the bolt head and/or washer is fine. but it can turn into a headache if the ironworkers don't connect to the proper side.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 05-22-2013 11:09
Sorry John, I just saw this post.
Faying surfaces are the surfaces that will be bolted together; the sides/surfaces that touch each other.  The opposite sides of those pieces (the side with the head and nut and washer) are not the faying surfaces and therefore do not require to be protected from paint and overspray.
Now be aware their is an actual minimum dimension to hold depending on the bolt diameter, and it's something like 3X the diam, I'm going from memory which we all know isn't always accurate :wink:
I can see the illustration in the RCSC and it shows a six hole pattern with darkened circles around it showing the area to protect.
Hope this helped.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-22-2013 13:12
Thanks for all of the replies guys...it helps to hear this from others, to confirm what I had been telling my paint guys all of these years is still right. Sometimes when someone questions you, you just need some reassurance that you've been doing it right all along.:wink:
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-10-2013 02:55
In my humble opinion the faying surfaces are those surfaces in direct contact when the connection is assembled or put together. Whether it is a welded or bolted connection is not material to the question of what constitutes a faying surface.

As such, the slip critical connection is not to be painted where ever metal to metal contact is made, i.e., between plies of metal. 

If the steel is hot dip galvanized, the surfaces that are in direct contact, i.e., between plies, are to be roughened with a hand brush.

Slip critical used to be known as friction connections because the friction developed between the two components, i.e., the faying surfaces, was dependent on the clamping force of the bolts times the coefficient of friction of the two metallic surfaces. Paint acts like a lubricant when subjected to high clamping forces effectively reducing the friction of the two faying surfaces.

This is in contrast to a bearing connection where the strength of the connection is a function of the cross section of the bolts passing through the slip plane (faying plane) of the connection. A bearing connection can slip when loaded. As the connection slips, the body of the bolt fetches up on the sides of the holes and is subject to shear forces.

A slip critical connection should not slip or slide when subject to a load. Think of it this way, in a bearing connection the bolts can be replaced with pins. The capacity of the connection is dependent on the cross sectional area of the bolts (pins). In a slip critical connection he bolts can be replaced with heavy C-clamps. The load capacity of the slip critical connection is a function of the clamping force times the coefficient of friction. The greater the coefficient of friction, the greater the capacity of the slip critical connection. Anything that reduces the coefficient of friction reduces the capacity of the connection. Oil, grease, or paint does just that, it reduces the capacity of the connection by reducing the coefficient of fiction. Thus the requirement that the faying surfaces must be free of any material that would reduce the coefficient of friction.   

When a slip critical connection is over loaded, the connection does slip and the bolt goes into bearing. The allowable load per bolt is lower for a slip critical connection than for a bearing connection.

Connections subjected to cyclic loads are required to be slip critical so the connection does not slip in one direction and then slip in the opposite direction as the load reverses. Where that to happen repeatedly, the bolt holes could become elongated and the slippage would worsen over time. Bad, bad, bad.

So, no paint between plies that are clamped together, i.e., no painted faying surfaces.

Sorry for the delayed response. I don't usually frequent this area.

Al
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 06-10-2013 10:50
Be aware though that there are slip critical approved coatings.  Usually they require a SP-6 prior to coating.  The manufacturer of the coating does the required tests to make sure they meet the requirements, it's a test a fabricator can't do.  I know Tnemec had a couple SC approved coatings but I can't remember which specific one from memory.  It's on the product data sheet, it will say SC approved, if it doesn't say SC approved then it's not.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 06-11-2013 22:02
From AISC, they are a lot faster at getting questions answered than AWS:

The area under the nut and head are not subject to the same requirements as the faying surfaces. The Commentary to the RCSC Bolt Specification (a free download from www.boltcouncil.org) does however caution against large coating thicknesses including under the head and the nut, and states, “Tests have indicated that significant bolt pretension may be lost when the total coating thickness within the joint approaches 15 mils per surface, and that surface coatings beneath the bolt head and nut can contribute to additional reduction in pretension.”

There are also assertions made in the literature that the slip resistance between the plies and the head and nut also play a role in preventing loosening under vibratory loads, but AISC does not address this issue.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-12-2013 11:14
Thanks for that reply. Good info.:cool:
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 06-13-2013 10:36
right, basically the thicker the coating, the more it can be "crushed" which results in less pre-tension on the connection (basically loosening the bolt).
Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / Correct application of the definition "Faying Surfaces"

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