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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Tornado season continues - Positioning US Military armore !
- - By Len Andersen (***) Date 05-22-2013 13:28
Ladies and Gentlemen,
         Tornado season continues. Positioning US Military armored (personnel carriers etc. ) vehicles without gun and engine near schools for children and teachers to access makes sense. They are about five times heavier than a car and far less likely to have occupant hurt in a tornado. We have such waiting to be scrapped that have not been moved for more than a year. I hope this is helpful 
                      Sincerely
Len Andersen weld@spemail.org
               914-536-7101   / 212-839-6599     8-4 New York Time , 4042 FAX , Co-worker 6381 / 914-237-7689 (H)
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $1160 per year Caller Box GPO NYC / Most Secure Service At Largest Post Office )
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-22-2013 14:47
That is a great idea. The internals could be removed to make more room for occupants and they are mobile. Disregarding their weight, they could be chained to a massive concrete pad to increase their probability of survival.

On the other hand, they have a very limited space for occupants. Wouldn't it make more sense to place a large volume tank underground or above ground with a couple of hatches that could be secured from inside? The cost would be minimal when integrated into the cost of building a new structure such as a school or other public structure.

I've inspected a number of subterranean pumping stations and generally they are in good shape even after 30 years of use. It is all a matter of proper/ effective corrosion protection either by the application of high quality coatings, use of sacrificial zinc, or other means.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-22-2013 15:47
Len at least gets a conversation started.

I have a book on my shelf titled '10 Feet To Survival' about the minimal cost of putting shelters underground at schools and other public facilities when under original construction.  The original context included the need for bomb shelters though the book is more recent than many would think.  And events since 2000 would make this an even more needed conversation. 

Many do not realize the vastness of bomb shelter systems in place in China and Russia.  Mainly because we have been lied to about the survivability of the ultimate bomb scenario- nukes.  But the real truth is the advantage of having them for natural disasters and small scale assaults. 

Anyway, we can easily bury water type tanks in the ground and put some basic supplies in them: first aid kits, water, easily stored canned foods, and tools.  Thus, high rates of survival for our children when faced with storms, earthquakes, fires, etc with short notice. 

I highly recommend a read of this book people.  It will give you some good ideas no matter where you live and what types of scenarios you envision.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-22-2013 16:35
A large storage tank could be placed above ground and mounded over with a couple of feet of earth in locations where digging a hole is not practical.

I can imagine several scenarios where the shelter would serve useful purposes.

I'll have see if I can locate a copy of the book you listed.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 05-22-2013 17:27
I've seen, first hand, in Oklahoma, the damage a F-4 tornado can do.  In a tornado of that class the only place safe is underground in an anchored shelter.  Large tornado's have been known to suck, shallow buried,  storage tanks out of the ground.   An F-4 tornado can lift a railroad locomotive and toss it just like a car.  I'm sure an APC will protect people from flying debris but a near miss or direct hit is going to be bad news.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 05-25-2013 05:28
We had a F4 in 1995 June 2 and it lifted and moved two trains & locomotives.  Loaded boxcars went through the cemetery cutting off trees, stones, anything in it's path throwing the cars around.  Rail was twisted and rolled around looked one of those giant roller coaster rails in the sky was sticking up 60 ft or so in the air rolled around sticking through more boxcars one twisted pile of scrap metal !  :eek:
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-22-2013 17:37
The next thing to consider is debris on the egress/access opening after an event.  That's why some tools would be expedient.  But largely, as long as it is an official record with First Responders they would know how to locate the shelter and get any occupants to safety within a reasonable period of time after it was safe to do so. 

Plus, in many of those cases, you would want more than one to provide for all those present in the facility and especially to have one close to different areas of a large campus.  Thus, the chances are not all of them would be blocked.

I'll look up the author and publisher when I get home tonight.  That should help in locating a copy.  Like I said, depending upon one's viewpoint of the bomb scenarios people may have a difficult time with some of it.  BUT, they definitely bring out all the other purposes for such protection and provide much information. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-22-2013 17:41
Found it:

'Fighting Chance: Ten Feet to Survival' [Arthur Robinson, Gary North] on ...Publication Date: June 1, 1986 | ISBN-10: 0930462106 | ISBN-13: 978-0930462109

Available at Amazon and others.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-22-2013 17:47
One more time:

These guys make quite a case for spending money to protect our children and how little money would be involved to do this even with no other construction going on at the time.  Areas in storm alleys, fire zones, and cities with high bomb probabilities should really consider this move. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.  All part of why I really like the area I live in...not near a big city, not in the jet stream path from a big city, not in normal storm area (though Flagstaff has had tornadoes only 60 miles as the crow flies from us), not a military target, etc. 

But, still need to have your resources and be prepared.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Len Andersen (***) Date 05-22-2013 15:26
803056 ,
      They took my name away and gave me US Army Serial # ! Greatly appreciated them letting me go ! We have a large "infra-structure to move Army stuff. Make it more "Tornado proof". Take a shovel so that the tracks tires are 15 cm ( 6 inches ) into the ground and my guess is that it would not move 200 mph wind. Your reply appreciated. US Army let me go greatly appreciated.
Len
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 05-23-2013 13:26
I've seen, first hand, in Oklahoma, the damage a F-4 tornado can do.  In a tornado of that class the only place safe is underground in an anchored shelter.  Large tornado's have been known to suck, shallow buried,  storage tanks out of the ground.   An F-4 tornado can lift a railroad locomotive and toss it just like a car.  I'm sure an APC will protect people from flying debris but a near miss or direct hit is going to be bad news. 99205

Sounds like 6 inches won't cut it Len.

Securing M113s or Bradleys to buried concrete blocks might do it.  With a couple of thousand kids in school, that's a lot of APCs.

Tyrone
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-23-2013 14:43
I'm afraid I would have to agree with that assessment.  Even in smaller tornadoes the power is incredible.  To watch them pick up buildings and watch them set them down on the other side of the road...then totally disintegrate the next one into minuscule particles, will send shivers up and down your spine. 

No, 6" of dirt around the tires even with the weight of the steel involved will not be enough.  And, as others have mentioned, not enough space in one to fit many people, even kids in a grade school. 

But, I would encourage everyone to read 'Fighting Chance: Ten Feet To Survival'.  It real does have practical application to exactly these types of events. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 05-25-2013 01:29
For everyones information::

The latest Moore Ok tornado had 600 (six hundred) times the energy of the Hiroshimo atom bomb (1945). 
I don't believe an armored vehicle has a chance..

Griff
Parent - - By Len Andersen (***) Date 05-24-2013 19:40
Ladies and Gentlemen,
     With all the mil armored up vehicles it occurs to me that they have a standard operating procedure for tornado damage avoidance - personnel in them safety. Two things come to mind get weight into them and belly them out tracks digging in and tie down to scrap tracks. Someone in mil knows better than me.
                                    Len
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 05-24-2013 21:58
Why not Pyramids? If the bottom is well secured where the air can’t get under it, the wind should slide up it with no purchase.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-24-2013 22:07
I have a close friend that builds above ground tornado shelters with UL ratings.  UMMM  in F4 F5 conditions a loaded 18 wheeler tanker truck can get airborne easily....I have my doubts about armored..even tracked PC's being able to stay put....however I am sure the armor itself will withstand any impact from debris.  Taking said vehicles and planting them in the ground would make fine shelters for 10-15 people, maybe even twenty....so it is a good idea.     Oklahoma seems at the recent history to have the greatest likelihood for severe monster tornadoes so that would be a great place for the resource to go as already stated.  

Most of you know I got hit two years ago I got hit by a small twister that was in the air......I still had a place (hotel) to stay in within 20 miles....those poor folks in Moore and a while back in Joplin have/had NOTHING left.  If you can volunteer or contribute to a church group or what have you PLEASE DO so.  I can only imagine how bad it is for those folks, for me nobody got hurt, we just had to pack clothes and move out for 8 months....a LOT of those folks only have the clothes on thier backs....if you can help in any way please do so.   I have some business to do in OK very soon and I plan on volunteering where I can with the time I have available...including using my rig to remove debris.  If your over insured it goes smoother but a lot of these folks are just like most of us and living paycheck to paycheck and their local job is over with....the 7-11 around the corner is not coming back for a long time.  So again please....if you have the capacity to help these folks in any way take the time and effort to do so.  It will do wonders for your karma.

Thanks for letting me spout off bout it.
Tommy
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 05-27-2013 10:51
I like your attitude Tommy!  A lot of folks need help right now.
:smile:
Tyrone
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-31-2013 02:21
Tyrone lots of folks are willing just don't know how.......if your in spitting distance of OK ask your local church leaders and they can line you out about providing assistance....whether its a few cases of drinking water or signing up to go down and rebuild.  They are turning away unregistered volunteers to go in impact areas down there right now but that does not mean you cannot help.  Soon anyone with a trailer and a truck or a chainsaw will be an extremely valuable help I am sure.  God bless you folks out there in Moore.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Tornado season continues - Positioning US Military armore !

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