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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rebar Questions
- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 06-30-2013 02:12
Over the years I have drilled a bunch of concrete but have yet to run across any rebar, lucky me.

Out on our bridge, engineer wants minimum 7" holes on a couple plates, not that the pipe will actually move in the abutment, well nothing short of a direct asteroid strike.

We went to drilling, our 2 bottom holes got 4.5" in and bam, rebar. 7/8" hole and it is filled with rebar. I call around and here about the wonder tool, "Rebar Cutter" with carbide tips. I send my guy out to pick one up. After an hour, yes, an hour of drilling we managed to scratch a little circle in the shape of the rebar cutter. We used all manner of things to "cool" the cutter as suggested by others and this thing did not do anything.

Round two, I call another supplier, "what's the best drill bit you have in a 7/8? I prefer something made with Kryptonite" I explain. "As it seems we have found Superman, entrapped in this bridge abutment". He gets me a HSS bit, rated for stainless steel. We drilled for about 20 minutes using cutting oil and it managed to make a dimple in the rebar then it would go no further, no seriously, it stopped. It almost appears that this stuff is work hardening. The harder we try the tougher it gets. We can't blow it out with a torch, arc gouge or anything, as this is, well, a bridge. The top two holes we did miss any other Kryptonian natives buried within the confines of the abutment.

Info that might be helpful, this bridge was built in 1969. I believe this is a lost recipe for steel that they no longer use and has long since been forgotten, perhaps an experimental titanium/diamond ore combination with manganese? Ok, just kidding on that in case you did not pick up on me being a smart arse.

We have solved the issue but curiosity killed the cat as they say and I am now wondering what on God's green earth.....and universe this stuff could be or if anybody has run across this in old structures.

So, educate me fella's, I'm actually looking for Superflux on this one if your out there John with any juicy information as I'm sure in your travels you have seen or heard of this amazing material that has since been lost, LoL!!

Thanks!

Shawn
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 06-30-2013 04:55
only good way to cut embedded rebar........Hand held core drill w/water coolant......Rebar cutters suck 1 cut is all you get!!!!!
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 06-30-2013 12:32
Oxygen lance?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 06-30-2013 13:34
Cumminsguy71,

From what you've described, you might not be too far off with the "manganese" alloy. If so, YEP it has probably been work hardened into a Brinell Hardness of somewhere's around rhenium diboride at 4600 HB...
One of my instructors in the early 70s had retired from a steel mill in Pa. before taking up teaching the welding trade. Since trains service these steel mills in both raw materials and finished products, they cut a deal with his employer by selling them unimaginable tonages of worn out rail track at a very reasonable price... perhaps even for free. After all, they are the railroad and the government has treated them well over the decades with free land, financial incentives etc. According to his story, all this track material was turned into rebar since at the time, it had very loose specifications on chemical makeup. Recycling was all but nonexistent in those days and it was too expensive to melt and sort out the various alloying ingredients, hence millions of tons of track was as he called it "Rerun into rebar".

Here's some common rail materials with compositions and mechanical data.
http://www.arcelormittal.com/rails+specialsections/en/chemical-composition.html
http://www.arcelormittal.com/rails+specialsections/en/mechanical-properties.html

Now back to your issue... You're screwed if it is indeed the recycled track. The only thing I can think of is if they will not allow a thermal cutting process, then maybe perhaps you might get away with convincing them to let you anneal it with a torch. Of course doing so there is always the "chance" that you might accidentally hit the the oxygen lever...:twisted::twisted::roll:... in which you could then clean up the mess with a die grinder and some really aggressive carbide burrs. I didn't say that did I???? Seriously, it sounds as if annealing might be the best option before mechanically cutting it.
The problem with running an acetylene torch in confined spaces like that are A) oxygen starvation snuffing out the flame, B) blow back heat ruining all your tips, C) causing a chance for backfire blowing up the torch, and D) the venturi effect sucks particles of, well everything into the orifices of the cutting tip. They don't last long under these conditions.
Don't know if you've ever used MSC, but they have just about everything metal working related. This is the baddest one in their inventory that will get down deep. 1/2" shank and 5" long. OOOOooooohhhhh baby!
http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Abrasives/Points-Burrs/Burrs-Burr-Stands/Burrs?navid=12100073+4288246844+4288210979+4288223475&searchterm=carbide
This page will allow you to refine your search by style, shank length, tooth, etc.
http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Abrasives/Points-Burrs/Burrs-Burr-Stands/Burrs?navid=12100073+4288246844+4288210979&searchterm=carbide

When I was setting imbed hangers in the Nuke Plant, whenever we hit rebar, we just called in the Engineers and they would relocate/redesign the hanger based on the assumption of the grid layout of the rebar. Of course once the change order was submitted, it would only take maybe 1 to 3 months and, Voila! We'd have a new drawing!...
I'll sleep on it and maybe have an epiphany later on.
Sorry I didn't have any magic cure for ya.
Good luck.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-01-2013 00:11
Thanks John! Rhenium Diboride, interesting reading on Wikipedia. All I know is this stuff drilled for a few minutes and as they say became as hard as a preachers root except the preacher don't have nothing on this rebar!

As far as torch cutting, burning, etc., I'm pretty sure the state would have a great big "no way" stamp somewhere just for such an occasion.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-30-2013 13:42
Not knowing the exact location of your work on this bridge, my question Shawn is if this rebar is at all structural?  Is the separation going to weaken the structure?  I would suggest you consult the engineer regardless of what you come up with for getting the holes completed.  Interesting read by the way from John.  Add's greatly to knowledge base of rebar.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-30-2013 20:21
We always used diamond core drills with continuous flowing  water to flush out the drillings and cool the bit.

Al
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 06-30-2013 23:56
It's on the bridge abutment at either end of the bridge. We have engineered plans, state approved, all T's crossed, i's dotted. We took care of the issue and have completed that task I was just curious as to what in the world wide Universe is up with this rebar!

We laughed and thought that if an asteroid had a direct hit on this bridge the only things left would be the steel we're adding to secure the waterline and the rebar! LoL!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-02-2013 18:48
I know for sure that an exothermic torch would cut it like butter! But you're drilling a hole so, different situation and yet, an exothermic torch will also cut concrete as well...

The only concern I would have is the effect on the appearance of the hole you're drilling as a result of using that cutting process.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By bruce69 (*) Date 07-01-2013 02:22
Ditto on the core drill using continueous water to keep the bit cool.  The lab at my company gets lots of drilled concrete core samples in for various testing.  Sometimes they have rebar in the cores.  Decent size stuff too sometimes like #6 or #7 rebar.  It takes a while to cut through the rebar but it can be done.
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 07-02-2013 03:34
Hey Shawn, Ive have never had a problem doing it with a normal core bit and lots of water. Funny though- you are working on a damn bridge and they let you poke holes where ever you need. We are hanging brackets in a storm water run off tank and we have to get 144 drill sites x-rayed to avoid rebar and custom cut/drill every flange.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 07-02-2013 20:23
I was kind of surprised to hear the EOR was letting you cut the ReBar, especially on a bridge.  I've had to use multi-hole plates in the past, if one hole was a hit just move to the next hole, then fill in the bad hole with epoxy.  Anyway, if you're setting those embeds with epoxy it would be best to core drill the hole so you don't get dinged by the inspector for under-length over sized holes.  I've rejected plenty of embed holes that didn't meet epoxy manufactures recommended size or length.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-02-2013 20:55
Well, let's just say that the rebar was not cut after all. There are no inspectors on this job and our resolution was discussed with the head cheese paying the bills so if there were any inspections by the state at a later date determining that the holes were not sufficient then the head cheese knows about it and it can be resolved at a later date and he will be billed accordingly, since it he was the executive behind the final decision. Which means the engineer and state could determine the fix required and when they get their shyte together can let me and the head cheese know. Meanwhile we soldier on in an attempt to complete this project which has now past the 1-1/2 year mark since the start.

I look at what we are installing and compare it to my K.I.S.S designed method and cannot for the life of me determine why we did not go that route. It is a ridiculously complicated design and quite costly I must add. The idea I had would most likely have had $1000-1500 in materials at best, perhaps another grand or two in fab work. I know we have $10,000 in this thing at least and the labor to install it is going to be expensive due to how we will have to go about putting this stuff up there over a flowing river.

Sometimes I don't get engineers. I think things are over thought, "Farm built" if you will. When I say nothing short of an Asteroid will dislodge this pipe from the bridge I am not joking.
- - By Dualie (***) Date 07-03-2013 05:20
I just move the part and shoot another hole.    I have been on projects where it seems like the rotorhamer was actually a rebar seeking tool.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-04-2013 00:35
Can't move the plates. The pipe dictates the location as it is thru the abutment.

What it is, two, one inch plates around 18 inches long with a radius cut in one side of each plate, to capture the pipe or at least wrap around it. These bolt to the abutment. You have two 3/4" strips that go opposite the seam on the one inch plates and use the same mounting holes. There are six holes drilled and tapped to accept a split megalug around the pipe. The megalug bolts to the plates and has "megalugs" that tighten down against the pipe. We replaced all of the joints on this bridge with these to halt any movement in the pipe, mostly.

So, long story, long. There is no supporting load on the one inch plate, no lateral load, no obscure articulating converse loading whatsoever. The only thing this system(cough) is supposed to do is to keep the pipe from quite literally pulling out of a very large concrete abutment where it has been quite stable since 1969. In order for said pipe to do this, 499.9 feet of pipe must be shifted either left or right horizontally thru the opposite abutment in order to put any type of strain on the anchors securing the one inch plates.

We have wt beams going in that mount to smaller anchors(2) next to the one inch plate. The wt's are tied in to every truss under the bridge by other structures(shyte, and shyteloads of it!) where the wt's are then tied in to the pipe with more structure(yes, more shyte). As if this was NOT enough, we also have more brackets(dear god, more shyte!) bolted to the truss that capture the pipe to remove any possibility of lateral movement.

I'm serious as a heart attack, an asteroid, possibly a nuke will dislodge this pipe from it's current location when we get finished! If we have another flood it would quite possibly wash the entire bridge down river as a complete assembly ending up in the Gulf on the beach with people standing around scratching their heads wondering where this odd looking barge came from.

If by some act of God an anchor becomes loose the client is not the type to say, "it's your fault" and point the finger at me. The anchors were set as deep as we could go without, (A) damaging the existing rebar and most importantly (B) not getting the engineer involved delaying this project further and costing my client more money and costing me job opportunities by waiting around on other people. Lost 2 tower jobs funkin' around with the detailer and engineer playing tidly winks with the plans. If an anchor becomes loose the client will be told to get with the engineer, all of the structure to secure the pipe will be in place and done. The plates can be removed and while they play figure out the rebar location and inform me of their intentions then we can proceed. Until then, we soldier on.

Hahaha!! What a darn mess it is!
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 07-04-2013 10:15
I'm guessing the Engineer must be worried about the any expansion/contraction of 500' of pipe.  That would put considerable loading on the anchors.  As long as he/she ran the numbers, it's hard to argue.  They must put in large safety factors when calculating bridge work.  Sounds like you've run out of time for an alternate design that could acommodate movement.
Soldier on.

Tyrone
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-04-2013 14:27
Quite possible Tyrone. Two feet from the plate on one end is an expansion joint, a very high dollar one to boot! LoL!

Yes, I'm sure there was some clickity clackin' going on with the calculator to determine this. It was the clients call. I was for calling and finding out exactly what they wanted to do but then on the other hand I was concerned because I'm trying to line large jobs up after this so throwing a three month break in on this project.....again is really going to put a large wrench in my operation. Client made the call, any issues that arise from this are on him and he understands this but at least he will be able to turn the water on when we have all of the steel up and insulation installed. If a fix was required at a later date it's not a big deal to remove the plates where they are at.

This might be a suggestion I could make to him, let the engineer figure something out from here.
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 07-04-2013 14:36
So, past the possible structural issues I hope you are not letting the hole sit with exposed rebar for extended periods with out filling it with some type of sealant. Exposed rebar is a huge corrosion issue. Unless you have in writing that the owner approved your method of cutting the rebar I would ask for the design engineer's input.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-04-2013 19:42 Edited 07-05-2013 00:48
We drilled as deep as we could go, filled with the required Hilti epoxy, stabbed our all thread and let it cure. Hung our plates and rolled on. The rebar was exposed for a few hours maximum. It's in the hands of the client and engineer now on what they want to do at a later date. As I said, I need to get this done. The client wants this done by the end of the month due the fiscal year ending and I need to get other jobs lined up. It pays by the hour but I don't get paid for sitting around waiting on the engineer for an uncertain amount of time and during this uncertain amount of time I cannot wander off to far on other jobs because I will have to be back here when they get their stuff together.

I have contacted the eor several times about the rebar issue and told him about acquiring a rebar cutter, and how it failed then trying to drill thru it with a HSS steel bit. I will be contacting him on Monday to let him know that the HSS bit was a failure as well. If he still wants to proceed with drilling the rebar, after reading what I have read on here I think I'd like some signed documents showing written approval from him to do so. He is well aware of what has been attempted and for anybody that thinks I'm going all out cowboy here, well, kindly hug a root.

Needless to say though, I am taking everything we do very seriously on this project. As serious as any gas pipe work or anything I have done. This is a bridge so if I thought that the bolt would make the bridge collapse I would have told him no, get the engineer. This pipe was jacked up beyond belief. Pipe suppliers that saw pictures could not figure out why the pipe did not leak at the joints, why the cast iron pipe was not broken or the knuckles cracked. For what these plates do in the grand scheme of things I consider them to be a non critical issue that can be resolved at a later date. The client will be informed that we did as he requested and it will be his duty to get with the engineer for a resolution.
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 07-05-2013 01:49
Shawn, you said you got 4 3/4" of imbed depth.....What's  hilti guide book say is the correct/recommended depth ......I think 4" if I remember correctly.....Anyways document in writing/ e- mail and move on to another battle/ job
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-06-2013 11:31
I'll have to call Hilti and ask about that. We were using 3/4" all thread studs. Engineer called out 7" on the prints, minimum. We moved on to a larger battle here in the last day or two. Mag drilling the trusses which was simple in a boom lift. The three I did yesterday had me hanging below the trusses in my climbing harness with my wicked still not available to the public positioning lanyard, feet on the girder, holding the mag drill trying not to drop it 40' into the water!! Odd though, I loved every minute!! LoL!!

Thanks for the input Smooth!
- - By Dualie (***) Date 07-06-2013 01:52
the problem with using a HSS bit in the bottom of a hole in concrete is no matter how clean you get the hole you will drag some silica or dust into the bottom.    that dust will grind on the cutting edge and wear it out way faster than anything else would when drilling conventional steels.     The core rig with lots of water washing will constantly being exposing new diamonds to the cutting edge as they wear and do a much better job dealing with the mixed media.  

this is all from my experience and yours may vary.  For a number of years my largest customer was a high volume concrete contractor that would call me first whenever he encountered a problem dealing with anything metal related.    One was stainless steel 1" embed plates that the engineer decided needed through bolting after they were already poured with 1" x 12" nelson studs on 12" centers.    That was a massive amount of screwing around with different systems.    Oh and to drill the stainless first would have been done overhead 120' off the ground.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-06-2013 11:25
Thanks Dualie, I am logging this diamond core bit info in my notebook! After I inform the engineer we might be going this route.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-06-2013 11:33
Just want to say thank you to everybody that replied!!! All comments greatly appreciated!

Shawn
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rebar Questions

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