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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / What makes someone ready to test for a cert?
- - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 07-16-2013 15:19
I work for a pretty good sized fab shop here.  I have some pretty talented welders also and some not so talented ones.  I have trained a few of our less talented ones and  eventually got them certified in a gmaw-s, facw-g, and smaw..  Anyways.. I have one guy here who they want me to certify who knows nothing about welding. I mean he know what it is, has been working in the fab shop for a year or more.  He has even been in my welding class at the college but as a student of another teacher.  I went to him yesterday and showed him the machine I wanted him to use.  He asked me which was the amperage, which was the volatge and which was wire speed.  Mind you this is a Miller DeltaArc so its giant knobs that are clearly labeled. He then asks me (with practice test plates in hand)  "Do it fill up the whole gap?".  Mind you he has taken a YEAR long welding course already where people do nothing but 3G, and 4G weld tests through the class.  And he is using the same machine he was using at the school.  I have patience for days but this gets on my nerves quite a bit.  And to top it off I asked him to move the machine to another table... What does he do?  Runs over all the leads and all the gun cables to all the machines inbetween instead of clearing a path. 

Now do I test him cause thats what the company wants?
Clearly he cant think on his feet,  I can turn the knobs to zero. 
Whats the minimum ammount of knowledge I need to see from someone to be ok to test them?

Thanks for anything you can give me!
Jordan
Parent - By qcrobert (***) Date 07-16-2013 16:20
I noticed no mention of a WPS...?

Thoroughly explain to him the information contained in the copy of the written WPS you have in hand.  Answer any questions he might have and offer quidance.

Allow him to test then perform VT and guided bend tests.  Examine and report tests results.

QCRobert
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-16-2013 16:36
Sad to say, many companies today do not want educated/knowledgable or even skilled welders.  As long as he can run a test, even if someone else has to set the machine, and pass they want the names on a paper to hand to a TPI and a body to put on the floor to increase production.

The codes do not call many of those other things out.  It is up to the company.  All that is specific to D1.1 is what it takes to qualify a plate in a particular position.  They don't even really have to know how to read the WPS.  As long as the company wants to assign someone in the shop to make sure the welders are using the correct procedure, electrode, and all other parameters for the job at hand, all he has to do is lay in welds that meet the inspection criteria. 

As inspectors, we don't like it either.  But, not much we can do about it as long as his welds are good.

Now, if they had an actual training program and utilized things like AWS's 'Entry' level and so on welder training criteria, you could train them per the specs there.  But, that still is not a code issue.  Just says the company really cares about quality even if it costs them a little more.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 07-16-2013 17:48
We have Many a Many WPS's for these guys to cert to and I showed him where to find the information on set up for the machines.  I think just cause i know what more is needed to be a productive welder I have personally made it a point to not test him till I feel he has a grasp of what it takes to tune.  I told him Ill turn the machine to zero and he will have a practice piece to tune up to then its show time. 

I cant believe though that prior knowledge isnt required for certain tests.. I can see both sides of that argument but still.  To weld a critical component and you are only there cause you can use a glue gun, doesnt make me too happy. 

Like if you were going to certify this same guy and find out the company build ferris wheels... would you ride one? or ski lifts? 

-J
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-16-2013 21:04
You said he went to the same school where you taugh, but had a deferent teacher. Do you think that be the reason are you know the teacher and it's not the other teacher. Does he even act like he wants to learn maybe you need to ask him.

                                                             M.G.
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 07-16-2013 22:23
Milton
Yea I was teaching a seperate beginner course and he was in the next level up under another teacher.  I helped him occasionally. But he blames the fact that the teacher didnt physically teach him technique. I asked him if he ever specifically asked for that type of instruction, or needed that sort of attention to accomplish his goals and he didnt have much of an answer for it.  See our class has maybe 50 students do its hard to teach hand skills over and over, you just sorta pop your head in and give pointers with the occasional bigger lesson. I have given him a bigger lesson a few times and we are still in thie situation.  And no he doesnt act like he wants to we here let alone be a welder. Just going through the motions being a smart ass like I once was.  After every 2 welds hes asking me questions and i want to see 30 welds before i answer anything.. Like he needs instant gratification instead of figuring it out himself like all welders.
-J
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-17-2013 00:45
Has he got his 90 days in or has he been working  their for a while. If he don't want to be working there he might be setting a bad example to the other employees. It may be time for him to leave.

                   M.G.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-16-2013 21:11 Edited 07-16-2013 21:33
The philosophy of some people is the welder only needs to be capable of depositing sound weld metal.

I have seen shops that tack weld the test assemblies in advance so the welder does not have to set up his own test coupons. The machines are set for him. The test assemblies may even be in the test position before the welder shows up to test (sounds like an ATF to me).

There are circumstances where the welder is only required to deposit weld metal in a specific position, of a certain type, a certain size, and for a certain length. The parts arrive at the workstation in a fixture ready to weld. That production welder does not have to see the welding machine, it is already set to weld. That scenario is exactly what was described to me for a shop located in Mexico. The welder only knows how to make the one weld and is only expected to make that one weld.

With that scenario in mind, how would you qualify the welders with one last thought in mind. The turn-over rate is 200% per year.

It is the Fredrick Taylor method of manufacturing.

My opinion is that the qualification test should be reflective of what the welder is expected to do in production. If the welder has to layout and tack weld components on the shop floor, then the welder should layout and tack weld the test assembly. If the welder is expected to set up the welding machine as production conditions dictate, then the welder should set up the welding machine for the qualification test. There is little to be gained b qualifying a welder under a set of ideal conditions only to find out the welder cannot work under production conditions. I do not believe in sending the welder to a laboratory to be qualified. I test the welder in the shop where he is employed using the same equipment he will be using in production.

I guess it depends on the goals established by the entity testing the welder. Is the goal to turn out as many "qualified" welders as possible? There are some schools that have qualification rates of nearly 100% at graduation. Of course the same welders cannot run a fillet weld because all they practiced in school was 1-inch groove welds. There are a couple of labs in the area that have pass rates way above 80%, but the same welders can't make a decent weld in the field. Technically, both situations just described are meeting the letter of the code, but they are not doing anyone any favors by qualifying people that are not competent. That's why I test welders on the site.  Are all welder qualification tests equal? No, not by a long shot. They are fair, but not the same because not all welding jobs are the same.  

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 07-16-2013 22:29
Al-
My thoughts exactly.  I want him to be able to set it all up and dial it in himself.  We have severl different Mig machines here and they are always getting changed up with different wires and gasses.  The welder should be familiar with his work and at his work.

Oh and the tip was getting blown out on his mig gun... I told him to change it out and it will improve his control... he said "nah ill just do it tomorrow, we only have an hour left"     like WHAT?  a 30 second job to improve your control and youre that lazy??!!     guy wanted to use a leather office chair for his plate tests too. spoiled...

-J
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-16-2013 22:44
Many of my clients use the welder qualification test as part of the weeding out process. They are not interested in building head count, they want people that can produce product.

Your "buddy" is one that needs to be weeded out.

90 percent of the problems on the shop floor involve the same 10 percent of the workforce. The problem is, even when you get rid of that 10 percent, there is always someone to replace them.

Al
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 07-17-2013 17:15
For the record he is not my buddy haha...

-J
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 17:44
Right, you probably picnic together on the weekends.  :eek:

Best regards - Al :razz:
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 17:47
Al, Somehow those 10% seem to always find a way in.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 17:53
Only to be replaced with a different 10% once the first 10% is run off.

Al  :eek:
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 18:12
AKA, the revolving 10 percenters
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 18:49
Amazing isn't it?

Al
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 08-09-2013 05:16
I've spent my time in the trenches sort of speak during welding school. Seemed to progress faster than others as stated by my teachers. I was a guy that students would come ask questions. I worked with a guy many times who had been there much longer than I. I graduated early and he was still there talking about staying for another semester or two. Great kid, knew welding, would adjust the machine and had the basic idea of SMAW for the most part. He would do a 3g one night and just about have it. Next night and the following it was like he was a first semester student.

I have an Uncle that has welded for over 30 years. He taught classes for a company he worked for years ago. He said some just are not meant to be welders. You show them over and over again, day after day and they still can't stick two pieces of bubble gum together. I think this job picks the welder. If the guy you are trying to test has been doing it for a year he is either not really interested or he just can't do it. If it was me I'd tell the company man he's a great helper but don't seem to have the goods when it comes to welding. I showed that kid everything he needed to know. Watched him for nights on end while I should have been doing something for myself. Pointed out what he was doing. A week or two later I was telling him the same stuff like he had completely forgotten. It was especially bad after holiday breaks or breaks between semesters.

Some just are not made to weld no matter how hard you try to teach them. Just my .02 cents.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / What makes someone ready to test for a cert?

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