Auminum Handrail/ D1.2 WPS

Date 03-07-2014 03:31 Edited 03-07-2014 03:38

Hello yojimbo, I realize that you have asked for information regarding a WPS for your proposed handrail job, I can't help you with that, but your mention of aluminum welding systems does bring to mind a couple of choices besides just the Lincoln one. I have included a link to the Thermal Arc 320 SP, we got ours with the digital adjustment in the gun handle, allows for selection of wire feed speeds and voltage settings at your fingertips. I'll also attach a picture of the Miller Invision with the D-74 Mpa feeder. This system has a dual feeder and is equipped with the AlumaPro push/pull gun on one side and can be outfitted with any other sort of wire on the other side of the feeder, it also automatically selects the correct machine settings whenever the trigger is pulled on either of the guns. We have both of these and they are very good at the AL welding as well as a host of other types. Get your distributor(s) to demo. all of them before you make a hard decision and then go with the one that best serves your purposes. You won't go wrong with any of them in my estimation. Best regards, Allan

www.oemeyer.com/Media/Default/Industrial/multi-process/powermaster320.pdf

By aevald

Date 03-07-2014 03:43

One other thing yojimbo, if you are going to be anodizing don't use the 4043 filler, it'll turn the weld deposits black. You probably already knew that yet I saw the alloy included in your post and wanted to point it out in case you weren't aware.

Also, on the link that I included in my first post, you may need to highlight it first and then right click on it to be able to open it. Best regards, Allan

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-07-2014 16:12

Allan,

That's a sharp setup, really like the diversity and the push/pull option with one of the guns. Need to look into it. Airgas has a demo store downtown the outside sales guy tells me can demo any of the machines they sell. I should have mentioned I am only working with 230 single phase, but that might not be an issue.

By aevald

Date 03-07-2014 17:41

Yes, either of those two machines will operate on 220/230 V single phase. 3-phase is preferred, yet, if you only have the single phase it will certainly work, you will be limited a bit on the full-output that the machines are capable of. Good luck and best regards, Allan

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-07-2014 16:26

I don't have the code handy for reference, but was looking at the scope in the preview at the AWS store...it doesn't list a min. thickness or grades of materials. Is it safe to assume that 1/8" is covered by AWS D1.2?

The table of contents list WPS qualifications and Welder qualifications for fillet welds and the soundness testing for fillets(plate and pipe/tubing)
I going to assume "again" that it has everything in there spelled out for you to get all of your testing and documentation done correctly.
$200 -nonmember
$150 - member

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 03-07-2014 20:51 Edited 03-13-2014 17:10

D1.2:2008 does not contain the 1/8" minimum thickness limitation of D1.1. PQR test coupons (assuming you qualify a PJP procedure only) must be submitted for visual, macroetch and bending. (I would recommend doing a 2F with actual production materials, unless you will have to weld out of position.) Table 3.6 contains the number of specimens for each test: Going by 2. Tests on Pipe and Tubing; (See fig. 3.18) 2 macros, 4 or more fracture, qualifies to unlimited plate t and max. fillet weld size and smaller. Probably the greatest part of the cost would be the labor, which you might want done by 3rd party.

6061-T6 is very forgiving when welded with ER4043. The weld and the HAZ are somewhat more ductile than the surrounding base metal, probably equivalent to a T4 but no guarantee of that. The great advantage of using 4043 is that you can heat treat your weldment to strengthen it. If you are anodizing and not performing a subsequent paint job, you will need to switch up fillers. ER5356 provides a good color match after anodize; however if you try to heat treat the weldment the 5356 welds will crack (5356 also does not do so well when you have to use a lot of restraint to prevent distortion). As far as strength goes, OSHA has a requirement for handrails to restrain 400 lb. horizontally. As a demonstration of one of my product's compliance, we placed an 800 lb. weight on the end of a 36" long 2x2x.19" wall 6061 tube inserted into a 2.5x2.5x.25" wall socket fillet welded (GMAW ER4043, no PWHT) on two sides to a 2x4x.19" tube. The "handrail post" didn't bend. and the welds sustained no damage. I should find the photos of that and post one. Very informative testing that day!

Anyway, good luck. And remember: CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN. :lol:

EDIT: I meant testing when I said 3rd party.

Edit #2: Okay, found the photos. The requirement is for the handrail to hold 400 lbs, and each rail has 2 sockets. So the static test was for one socket. We also used this test to show the difference between vertical welds uphill vs. downhill. This is all 6061-T6 as-welded, no PWHT, GMAW, ER4043 filler.

This one was welded downhill, no prep. Failed before the 800 lb. weight was moving upward. (161k)

800 lb. weight, testing to failure (186k)

Failure of the uphill weld at 800 lb., which was properly prepped. This weld unaffected by 400 lb. (129k)

By 46.00

Date 03-07-2014 21:35

Be interesting to see those pictures. Thats quite a test. I think we should all post alot more pictures on here, I might start 'a picture a day' for a while. I know I enjoy looking at all the informative and interesting photos on here, especially those that deal with areas of welding/engineering that I'm not familiar with

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-07-2014 23:14 Edited 03-07-2014 23:19

Thank you gentlemen. You have given me the baseline info and direction of inquiry I needed, very helpful. I am pretty certain I can find D1.2 at the downtown branch they have a very good technical reference dept. If we proceed my hopefully not yet lapsed AWS membership will help with the code purchase. JR- yes I was wondering about 1/8 as well, it is called out on the rails, posts I now see are 3/16". Bozak, good to know the wall isn't a restriction as well as your other AL experienced based insights. That's going to be very usefull. The railing spec. calls out powder coating, I will assume for now that will rule out anodizing- but with DOT work one never can be sure- so I will be investigating coatings further. I suspected there was a heat treating method involved, I have a brain cell that seems to recall annealing the AL weldments to bring their strength back although thats not likely the correct terminology.

The only other time I've gone through the WPS PQR protocol was for another DOT project that began 2 years ago. We qualified a down hill ER706 bare wire to D1.1 in order to build a large railing system that got galvanized and powder coated. The process began with AWS membership, the purchase of D1.1 code, a whole lot of head scratching and asking advice from members here- Fred you might remember this- a lot of help from the guys here, some real funny [ and I really mean "odd" funny ] phone conversations with several local CWIs, and finally getting the PQR completed. It was an interesting and challenging learning experience I thought of in part as elevating my level of competence as a contractor/tradesman. The project required DOT inspection and approval of my very humble "plant/facility", QA QC manual [a fine piece of fiction that] and an endless number of excrutiatingly frustrating emails, conversations, explanations and daisy chains of bueracratic folderol to ever get the job started. Once begun, the first order of business was mass producing the 5000 pickets requiring 10,000 drain and vent holes, and as many copes for the job to have them stockpiled and not interrupt the railing production once begun- which I had been assured would be June of 2013. By August with the first wall that took railings still not ready and 300 LF already jamming the storage container to the rafters, the real down in the ditch learning of cut throat GCs and never on time sub contractors impeding my work, impacting my schedule, cash flow, weather window, unabsorbed overhead and sanity began. Been quite a ride.

The day we've been waiting for arrived this afternoon at 2 PM. Punchlist 2nd inspection and approval of final quantities. The Big Chewy Elephant has finally been devoured and the job is done. I have some kind of tech difficulty transfering picture from the camera to the computer files, and it's on the weeks list of thing to get fixed. When done I'll put up a couple of shots that will hopefully reflect that the efforts you guys made and continue to make in helping a guy get things done right were not a complete waste of time. Not much left to do today but Invoice for final payment and go get a beer.

By aevald

Date 03-08-2014 00:25

Congrats and savor that beer, sounds as if it is definitely earned. Best regards, Allan

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-08-2014 02:53

>The Big Chewy Elephant has finally been devoured

LOL, that's right......one bite at a time buddy, one bite at a time.... :cool:

By fschweighardt (***)

Date 03-10-2014 12:48 Edited 03-10-2014 13:09

If you have a lot of welds to make, look closely at a pulsed push pull system. it will cut way down on spatter and/or rough bead surface that you will have to chop off to get a nice surface finish ready for powder coat.

As fas as code, no lower limit on thickness in the scope, as mentioned above, but Clause 3 shows a lower limit of 1/8" on pipe and tube in Table 3.4 - Part 2 (Class 1). Might want to make sure the wall on the tubing is .125 or greater, and not .120 or something screwy. Square tube should be the full 1/8, but who knows.

With careful WPS selection and checking macro requirements, you might be able to get away with a single WPS/PQR test. Much will depend on whether the design calls for CJP (tube splice or size on size tee joint). I might guess that you have some tube to plate joints (fillet welds) for post bases, but not sure if the rails are smaller or same size as the posts. Smaller should result in virtually all fillet welds. Size on size makes for more interesting welding, particularly if the engineer/designer/drafter/architect does not put a symbol in the tail for this type of joint, making everything CJP. Cap on post, or the cheek (flat side) of the joints will then have to be beveled and a CJP put in. Bet a dollar that this type of joint will not have a PJP callout, and the symbol will not call for any bevel so you get to go back to the engineer and explain how bad his drawing sucks.

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-10-2014 14:47

Fred,

Thanks for weighing in. You should have upped the bet, you'd have made more than a dollar. The contract drawings show NO welding symbols or call outs AT ALL. These guys are getting paid to do what exactly? The public website where I locate the project manual only allows printing the entire thing, sometimes, other times I can do one sheet- go figure- and the railing drawing requires full download/printing so I am holding off until some RFIs get answered, but if memory serves, the rails are smaller than the posts and would allow for fillets instead of flared bevels and the cap could probably be tweaked to get a plate on top of the post just oversized enough for a fillet as well.

It never ceases to amaze me how much the lack of attention to basic detail is ignored in design plans. When it seems like someone has given the details some thought, they have used very muddy logic and designed something that is either unconstructable or designed in a manner that adds no additional strength or value and costs twice as much to build. The good thing is that on occasion, when the plans deficiencies are pointed out [very gently and deferentially of course] and a suggested alternative method of construction that has served the industry for just about ever is offered- after checking with my consultant PE- the alternative, less costly, more logical method of construction is adopted. The saving grace is that at least I am dealing with engineers and not architects.

I think you are right with the pulsed, push/pull system. The weld samples I've seen with that technology are light years ahead in terms of weld appearance over the basic AL mig work I've done and seen done.

I'll be digging in to this project which bids 3/25 over the next week, getting some answers and avoiding other questions until after bid. Plan to go though D1.2 at the downtown branch this week and maybe purchasing from AWS if it looks like I will want it in the library- I do but not as much as I'd want it if I had an immediate need for it.

I think I will also start a thread to get imput from the engineers/inspectors and fabricators here on how they approach the issue: Bid to Specification or Bid as Constructed with a second issue of getting the design corrected before bid. Not sure which forum it would belong in but the approach others use could prove to be valuable.

By JTMcC

Date 03-10-2014 15:12

quoting yojimbo:

"The saving grace is that at least I am dealing with engineers and not architects".

Boy ain't that the truth : )

And plus one on the pulse on pulse with push/pull gun. Lincoln PowerMig 350 is the only one I've been around but it knocks out aluminum fast.

JT

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 03-10-2014 23:24

JTMc........I concurr Lincoln MP350 w/ push-pull gun IS THE BEST WAY to run aluminum ......Light years improvement compared to "spool guns" ( like living in the Stone Age )....... Best machine I have invested in for my shop..... Needed it for" facade work" (all railings, awnings & elevator shell) on a parking garage we did in Pittsburgh ....... You can see it under my projects page on my website...... :lol:

By fschweighardt (***)

Date 03-10-2014 15:21

If your design calls for flat plate on post, you will probably be able to cut the plate 1/8" smaller all around and be able to put in a nice fillet. Also if the post wall is 3/16" the plate won't be able to fall down inside. May have to TIG the cap plate for best appearance, but a good MIG guy may be able to pull it off. If you have a bunch of posts, a simple fixture or 2 will save a ton of time on fitup. Looks like you will be working mostly off of Table 3.6 for fillet welds. Since it is box tube, it doesn't fit in perfectly with the code drawings for tube to plate (Fig 3.18), which should be the test for the post to baseplate welds. It looks like that test would set you up for all the fillet welds except for the cap, asuming you TIG that one.

By JTMcC

Date 03-10-2014 20:01

quoting yojimbo, again:

"I think I will also start a thread to get imput from the engineers/inspectors and fabricators here on how they approach the issue: Bid to Specification or Bid as Constructed with a second issue of getting the design corrected before bid. Not sure which forum it would belong in but the approach others use could prove to be valuable".

Many large books could be written on that subject : )

JT

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-10-2014 23:08

Many large and dense books have been written about it but who has the time to read them all. One very helpfull one I used in a matter that ultimately provided some very deep education was "Construction Contract Claims, Changes & Dispute Resolution" by Paul Levin. It's the kind of text that a 1st or 2nd year Project Management student would study, that a construction attorney had better know inside and out but is still accessable to a simple minded layman that specializes in building things if only he were allowed to. But in the real world he is not, and had better be able to navigate the lay of the land in his contractual obigations.

I was also fortunate in that during the performance of our last major contract, alluded to above, the PM for the GC was a very savvy guy. His job to protect the GC contractually was his primary function, the hands on day to day stuff he usually delegated but would take up the practical material issues as well when required, although with some displeasure because he really was a busy guy. I was fortunate because he exposed me to some of the ins and outs of contract management and supported his subs when things with the agency got sticky. It helped I had asked some of the questions I did, prior to bid, that resulted in two substantial change orders due to negligent information provided by the state that the GC got to benefit from as well.

I think one of the benefits of the topic discussion I mentioned would be that our trade, I will simply refer to it as Steel Fabrication or Metal Fabrication has so many aspects, materials, code compliance, tolerances and detail driven understandings that are foreign to most people even those with years in the construction industry. PMs with a trade backround are not usually from a metal fabrication backround. A guy with a Civil Engineering backround is likely to have a hard time understanding why a 1/4" is not a tolerable tolerance.

There is a pretty good website Engineering Typs I think it's called, where there is some good discussion of contract related subjects I'd like to learn more about, unfortunately participation is limited to PEs and engineering students. I really would like to get the topic out for further viewpoints and insights to learn how others handle bad specs, unconstructable plans, schedule changes and delays. May be the mods will find an appropriate forum to locate it.

By JTMcC

Date 03-11-2014 21:12

The way we like it is, "all questions answered and specs clarified before the bid date". It happens, sometimes. Sometimes a magical unicorn delivers the drawings in the middle of the night and places them under your pillow.
A lot of engineers are happy to have ground level input and will modify specs to suit. Some will have nothing to do with it and the owner eventually pays a much higher price, or recieves a much lower quality product. A lot of EOR's understand that they are not field weld experts, some not so much : )
Some (good) engineers welcome constructive field input and file it in their knowledge base for future use. Some get all "college boy" huffy and want it made as it was drawn, right, wrong or indifferent. They take suggestions as affronts. Those are usually young guys who never served any site time.
Lacking that we either don't bid, or bid to the specs on hand. That means a lot of lost bids because hacks will and do bid sub spec. Usually hoping to make the profit on change orders thrown in in a "surprise"! mode. So be it, I can't control that part of the world. We try to see that before hand and step out of the process. It can be a crap shoot for sure.
We've picked up significant amounts of work after the owner has endured many change orders with lo ball quotes or bailed out contractors who would of gone under mid stream.
Worse yet is a lack of specs. Clear, real world specs give the owner the best job possible, fantasy land sometimes but hope springs eternal, eh?
The cut and paste nature of (missapplied) specification is worse now than ever in my opinion. Clarification is always a good thing but it's not always there.
You just do what you can do. And pick your jobs with care.

Changes and dispute resolution means there have been major failures upstream of the work on the ground. Ugly but very neccessary at times. Hopefully everything is in clear black and white on paper at that point.
Defending a change order is easy, if the signed papers back you up. But mo, mo better to never issue a change order. Easier said than done, right?

We try to get everybody clear and same page early on. Some projects are just designed to prevent that clarity. Like you said, a question asked pre bid (and documented so) can be a life saver later in the process. You really do need to cover your butt when you swim in tanks full of sharks, they will eat you and your kin as well.

You already knew this of course.

Just my little take.

J

By 46.00

Date 03-11-2014 22:51

Don't ya just miss Al at this point? Love him or hate him!

By JTMcC

Date 03-11-2014 23:15

I'm not sure who "Al" is, but if he has extensive bidding experience with poor to goofy drawings and obscure specs, then maybe.

JT

By JTMcC

Date 03-12-2014 21:23

It's a very pertinant topic to people who wade thru hour$ of goofy drawings and specs that have no reality connection. And then deal with the after effect$.

But a very boring topic to all others.

I don't think this forum is a place that it would work out, there just aren't a lot of people who price out work here. But if you have that conversation.....I'm in.

J

By 46.00

Date 03-13-2014 06:37

If your not sure who 'Al' is on this forum you are sadly blinkered. The force is very weak with you!

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-13-2014 14:25

JTMcC-

I appreciate your contribution to the subject. Others here, while maybe not directly in the position to price out jobs [and the subsequent personal liablility] seem to have input and effect on the production costs of their related employers. There are others here as well that simply have decades of field experience, engineering and inspection on a practical level that might wish to voice an opinion or share an experience that might be educational. There are some with business backrounds of sufficient development whos inights might also be worth considering. We'll have to see who might wade in and what's brought to the discussion but it is a discussion I am looking forward to.

In the next few days I'll make time to begin the thread. Its objective may not be appropriate to this forum in that my primary intent is directed not at the purely technical aspects of our trade but focused on how to make a living running a business in this trade. It will be directly related to the concerns of legitimate licensed contractors and businesses in the welding and metal fabrication industry. Should the moderater of this forum be reading this and wish to premptively direct me to the correct forum board that would be welcome.

Any suggestions for specific concerns that should be included in framing the discussion would also be welcome.

By JTMcC

Date 03-13-2014 18:04

Sadly blinkered and weak? OK.

But I've only got so many hours per day and I have a real live Wife and little kids that I interact with as much as possible. Plus I spend some time on those aforementioned muddled drawings and specs. My real job is mostly done outdoors.

So while I wade thru those specs sending emails for clarification, I read on this site sometimes but no, I don't memorize who is who or who said what. I read what's of interest to me. I do know a few people who post here personaly, I know their real names but don't spend much energy keeping up with personalities online.
I understand the forum world has much deeper meaning to others.

If I was to bear down, take of my blinkers, and bolster my interweb forum force, I wouldn't have any time to ride my motorcycle or play with the rugrats.

JT

By 46.00

Date 03-13-2014 20:47

You mean you don't click on your favorites bar every other minute looking for that beautiful pale yellow folder icon that means an unread post? How is this possible? The pure joy and excitement from hovering the cursor over the unread post icon and waiting to clck makes my legs go weak with pure pleasure!

I feel I know all of you on here personally, even Mr ESAB.

What is a 'Wife and little kids'?

I went outdoors 'bout two months ago, it was cold. Came back indoors to my 'puter.

Had a motorcycle once, didn't have internet on it though, so it had to go. Had a quad as well, got lost riding in the desert, luckily I had my smart phone with mobile internet with me so was able to find away back to the truck, sold quad!

I find it hard without the AWS forums to provide a comfort layer for me, I sometimes venture onto Eng-Tips but they are a bit smart for me over there.

I admire people who have alternate lifestyles and interact with people, talking and socialising 'n all that. Well done!

By JTMcC

Date 03-13-2014 21:51

That's funny.

I do get all computer centric when I'm sitting here slaved to either the phone or an email, I don't dig it tho.

Wife/Chic = a warm loving creature that endures and prospers with me over year after year : )

Kids = funny little humans who depend upon me for (good) food, shelter and lots of entertainment, that I'm good at, at least in my (our) infantile minds : )

Outdoors is where the real world happens, I love it there : ) Sun rises, sun sets. Light, dark, it's all groovy.

Motorcycles are a form of in the wind can't have any more fun (excepting the above mentioned Great Wife!) freedom I've loved since 1972 when Dear Old Dad rebuilt and painted (yellow) an old mini bike for Little John.

Eng-tips has a lot of good info for sure, a different viewpoint than my little "where the arc meets the iron" world but very helpfull nonetheless. They are a bit math smart for me too : )

I live to interact with people, I just wish I was mo better at it : ).

Alternate lifestyle? you make me look like a metrosexual, I'm all stupid man here : )

That was funny for sure. Who is this "Al"?............

Got to go try and make some homemade biscuits and eggs with sausage, The Girls will be home soon. And I still have a bid due tommorrow : 0. Haven't made biscuits for years, called Wife/Chic's Mom and got Grandma's 100 year old recipie. Hope it all turns out.

JTMcC, dumb but very, very happy.

By 46.00

Date 03-14-2014 19:47

Ya see, biscuits and eggs with sausage, sounds so wrong over here in the UK a biscuit is a 'cookie' yet over in the states its a scone!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit

By JTMcC

Date 03-14-2014 20:23

Good grief, talk about thread drift.

Anyway, my biscuits/scones came out "OK".
Wife/Chic is right now making chocolate chip cookies/Biscuits.

Apologies to the O.P.

J

By 46.00

Date 03-14-2014 21:23

MY GOD Man, you didn't end your signature!!!!!!

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-15-2014 01:54

The OP needed the excursion.

Do we really have live coverage from the Ukraine?

The joke that had me chuckling all day yesterday has got to be funny regardless of your politics or the seriousness of the situation.

The news reported the following phone conversation between Putin and Obama

Obama: Hello Vladimir

Putin: Knock-Knock

Obama: Ok. Whos' there

Putin: Crimea.

Obama: Crimea who?

Putin: Crimeariver.

click.

Also, it has been reported Putin has been visiting troops to bolster morale riding barechested and bareback on a Grizzly.

By 46.00

Date 03-15-2014 23:23

Crimeaiver, I like it....who's Obama?

By yojimbo (***)

Date 03-16-2014 02:55

46

V.I.P.

The Big Cheese.

Prez.

Guy with The Codes.

And honestly electected without a recount or the need to have the Judiciary intervene.

Thats America. Good. No?

By 46.00

Date 03-16-2014 04:36

Ahhh! the man who wants (gunna) to take your guns away!?! I knew I recognised the name!

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 03-17-2014 16:40

Photos are posted. Enjoy.