Consumable insert Use for ? anyone please clarify

Date 09-16-2014 17:51

My experience with consumable inserts has been primarily in the hot loop of nuclear work.

I have a project currently underway where the application is military, but they will not specify the application. I suspect it too is associated with a hot nuclear loop where there is a concern about crevasses that could capture radioactive debris.

It takes a little practice to develop the skill needed to properly fuse the consumable insert. When it does work, the root is very smooth and uniform.

We used a U-groove, 1/32 inch root face, with no root opening. We have had good success.

Al

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-16-2014 21:37

I welded plenty of pipe joints with consumable inserts when I worked in "Rotten Groton, CT" building US Nuclear Fast attack and Fleet ballistic missile (Super Boomers) firing submarines of the US Navy...

In fact, just about every pipe butt joint had a consumable insert that was made of the same type of metal being joined together... They were also called EB Rings' with the "EB" meaning "Electric Boat." Once you learned how to weld the root pass with these it became second nature, and you knew the weld root was well fused to the I.D. it took a little to get used to when we first learned but, once you got that root pass down, it was smooth sailing afterwards...

Some fella's were really good and fast @ welding the root passes so, that's all they did exclusively... They came in various diameters and were very useful in boosting production in having to weld together thousands of pipe butt joints in mostly the 2G & 5G positions with GTAW...

As a Boilermaker, I came across only a few sites where they used chill rings but no consumable inserts unless it was commercial nuclear work... There's a big difference between the two types of rings. I don't know if they still use those chill rings anymore... What type of work are you doing and, what process are you using to weld these consumable inserts?

Respectfully,
Henry

By kcd616

Date 09-16-2014 21:59

What type of work are you doing and, what process are you using to weld these consumable inserts?
Henry you beat me too it
let us know and we can try to help, or give some guidance
Al and Henry are the best
wish I was that good :eek:

sincerely,
Kent

By 803056

Date 09-17-2014 03:27

GTAW on stainless steel pipe. Always gas backing gas.

Al

Insert-U-Groove2-Sept-2014Model1.jpg (54k)

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-17-2014 06:27

http://www.arcos.us/inserts.asp

https://pubs.aws.org/Download_PDFS/A5.30-A5.30M-2007PV.pdf

http://robvon.com/

This is from Robvon's website:

Consumable Insert Welding Procedure:
The Robvon Consumable Insert Ring is to be used with tungsten inert gas (TIG) GTAW. DC and Straight polarity is used for "TIG" welding.

The weld joint and immediate adjoining area of parts to be welded should be prepared by machining or grinding. To assure consistent weld quality, cleanliness must be emphasized. Only rubber bonded (not resin) aluminum oxide wheels should be employed for grinding with stainless steel brushing to follow for complete foreign particle removal.

After joint cleaning and alignment, and prior to welding, it is important that inert purging gas be employed in sufficient quantities to assure a smooth, clean underside free of undercut, overlap porosity, oxides, freedom from lack of fusion, etc.

Root welding is accomplished with Robvon Consumable Insert Ring and "TIG" GTA welding process using inert (argon or helium)gas backing. To create a positive atmosphere, purging dams should be used.

Purging at a flow and pressure to accommodate a flushing of six (6) times the volume of the piping or section of blanked-off area is usually adequate. While still maintaining a positive inert gas backup, the purging flow and pressure are reduced to a flow of approximately 2 SCFH using a venting valve or relief system to prevent internal pressure build-up while the root welding is accomplished. Insufficient internal positive gas pressure will allow excessive penetration or fall-through while excessive gas pressure will result in concave and incomplete root-bead penetration.

The choice of amperage, Tungsten electrode size, arc length, shielding gas, nozzle size and gas flow will depend on the thickness of the material in the joint areas and the speed of travel or capability of the operator. Generally, the use of argon/helium shielding and backing gas is recommended for greater welding speed and improved weld quality. A flow of 12 to 20 SCFH, depending on the nozzle size and amperage, will be adequate. An area of amperage setting for "TIG" GTA welding is to use 1 amp for each .001" thickness of material to be fused. To avoid crater cracking and shrinkage, it is suggested that remote current control be used with the arc to be started and ended on an immediately adjoining copper tab or starting block without interruption of the arc.

Using the "TIG" process, once the root pass has been completed, the internal inert gas purging should be maintained while the second pass is completed with filler metal. Gas purging may be eliminated after root pass using MIG, ARC or other processes for second and subsequent completion of the welded joint.

Typical end preparations include, but are not limited to, the "J" and "V"-Groove in accordance with ASTM, AWS, ASME or MIL specifications.

SPECIFICATIONS: All shapes are manufactured in accordance with AWS 5.30, ASME 5.30 and MIL-I-23414. MATERIAL SPECIFICATIONS:All shapes are manufactured in accordance with AWS 5.30, ASME 5.30 and MIL-I-23414. QUALITY CONTROL:All materials are manufactured under Robvon's Quality Assurance Program, 10CFR50, and are qualified for nuclear work.

GENERAL MATERIALS AVAILABLE: MATERIAL DESIGNATION FOR WELDING: Ms 1 (E70S2)Carbon Steel, Ms 2 (E70S3)Carbon Steel, 5024 to 6 Percent Chrome Moly, 5151¼% Chrome ½% Moly, 5212¼% Chrome 1% Moly, 308 & 308L Stainless Steel, 304 & 304L Stainless Steel, 302 Stainless Steel, 309 & 309L Stainless Steel, 316 & 316L Stainless Steel, 347 & 348 Stainless Steel, 6ANiCrFe-6, 60 Monel NiCu-7, 61 Nickel Ni-1, 62 NiCrFe-5, 67 Cupro Nickel, CuNi, 82 Inconel, NiCr-3

NOTE: OTHER MATERIALS AVAILABLE UPON INQUIRY

http://www.imperialweldringcorp.com/consumable_inserts.htm

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/welding-aluminum-piping

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a452009.pdf

http://cstools.asme.org/InterpretationsPDF/BPVC-IX%20Interp_Stnd-59_2008.pdf

There's more but, I'm going to stop here and edit tommorow.

Respectfully,
Henry

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-17-2014 15:55

Here are some more pictures of consumable inserts:

Mums the word Gerald! :grin:

Respectfully,
Henry

BackingringsandConsumableinserts.png (83k)

Typicalconsumableinsertcrosssections.jpg (3k)

0000234_a530a530m2007_specification_for_.png (13k)

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 09-17-2014 10:43

With consumable insert joints utilizing an Inverted T style the included angle is typically greater than that used on conventional open root joints. 80 degrees+. As the joints get tighter, pulling the insert is a little harder.

CS, SS all pull well in my opinion. As you move into Inconel, NiCU, and CuNi, things get more difficult. I shouldn't say it around these other ex navy guys but on seawater systems, I have pulled more than one insert out of a joint and open rooted it due to the difficulty precleanining the inside of the pipe to remove the seawater caused residue. Glad I did, it was helpful when I got to the "Real World" and realized nobody had a clue what an insert was.

http://www.weldingdata.com/New_Folder/misc/consuminsert.html is a page I made to answer a question a few years ago but it only shows a representation of an insert. Doesn't really say much.

Gerald

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-17-2014 15:44

Toey,

Somehow, I'm not sure if we have totally understood your question. Are you simply wanting to know the types of applications consumable inserts may have in application on a job? Because there are possibilities beyond just piping though that is the general usage and the direction your query seems to lead us.

Consumable inserts can be used in structural applications to restrain and/or control movement by shrinkage of a joint. The problem with that application, as well as in piping though not as much an issue, is the stresses that are then incorporated into the structure when welded and the natural shrinkage from molten steel phase to solid steel phase is restrained.

The most common use is in piping to control lineup and root opening at the joints. They are not just simple backing rings they are a more solid restraining piece for more precise control of the finished product.

As previously asked, it would help if we knew more specifics about your application. Without betraying any confidentiality of course.

They do take a little practice to fully consume when CJP's are required. But, what joint doesn't? Fillets can be harder than many give them credit for being. CJP's without backing able to be accessed from only one side are indeed a challenge. ETC. Everything has it's own intricacies in order to complete successfully. But, completed properly you don't even know they are there when looking at the RT. Just looks like a perfect weld.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-17-2014 18:55 Edited 09-17-2014 18:59

OP Title: " / Consumable insert Use for ? anyone please clarify"
OP: "I suspect about consumable that we use for Purge gas or control root penetration or anythings ."

Let's see... I believe we answered the OP's title question...

Now the Original Post, Toey TNDT suspects about consumable which could mean anything but since we already read and answered the title question, I suspect Toey's referring to consumable inserts even though he didn't include the word in his statement that is actually supposed to be a query/question... Okay so now that all of that is clarified regarding what Toey wants to know about consumable inserts, let's answer Toey's second query/question...

Purging is done for most metals except for carbon steel and Aluminum unless it's a critical application which would then warrant purging... The purging also help in keeping the shape of the weld root consistent and depending on whether or not a mix with helium is used and to specific ratios, one can certainly use the purging/backing gas to aid in controlling root penetration... However and I believe Brent already pointed this out, the control will vary not only from the purging gas mix, but more so when one takes into consideration all of the variables involved like travel speed, current, arc force, pulsing parameters, balance settings, tungsten size & shape, configuration of the insert, root opening & groove shape, shielding gas, etc.... If the requirement for consistent root penetration is for joints with abnormal weld lengths then automation is the way to go for that...

I also posted this in my second post for this thread:

"Purging at a flow and pressure to accommodate a flushing of six (6) times the volume of the piping or section of blanked-off area is usually adequate. While still maintaining a positive inert gas backup, the purging flow and pressure are reduced to a flow of approximately 2 SCFH using a venting valve or relief system to prevent internal pressure build-up while the root welding is accomplished. Insufficient internal positive gas pressure will allow excessive penetration or fall-through while excessive gas pressure will result in concave and incomplete root-bead penetration.

The choice of amperage, Tungsten electrode size, arc length, shielding gas, nozzle size and gas flow will depend on the thickness of the material in the joint areas and the speed of travel or capability of the operator. Generally, the use of argon/helium shielding and backing gas is recommended for greater welding speed and improved weld quality. A flow of 12 to 20 SCFH, depending on the nozzle size and amperage, will be adequate. An area of amperage setting for "TIG" GTA welding is to use 1 amp for each .001" thickness of material to be fused. To avoid crater cracking and shrinkage, it is suggested that remote current control be used with the arc to be started and ended on an immediately adjoining copper tab or starting block without interruption of the arc.

Using the "TIG" process, once the root pass has been completed, the internal inert gas purging should be maintained while the second pass is completed with filler metal. Gas purging may be eliminated after root pass using MIG, ARC or other processes for second and subsequent completion of the welded joint.

Typical end preparations include, but are not limited to, the "J" and "V"-Groove in accordance with ASTM, AWS, ASME or MIL specifications."

To sum it up, I believe both questions were answered completely if one applies the KISS method to answer them. :smile:

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-17-2014 19:05

Thanks Henry, I think so too but just was wondering from the wording of the title if only the variety of use of inserts was being questioned to answer informational knowledge questions instead of being a question about application to a specific project.

Sometimes I am just not focused enough to have a clear understanding of the question.

Great links and attachments BTW.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By Toey TNDT (**)

Date 09-18-2014 03:17

In Cswip question
Fusible inserts for gtaw helps to
A. Reduce porosity
B. Give controlled root penetration
C. Avoids the need for a back purge
D. it acts as a backing for the root run

I'm not sure this answer , which choice is true

Anyone who answer this question

Regards ,

Toey tndt

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-18-2014 06:27

Yep, I gotta learn a foreign language. I think I may try Romanian or some other common form of communication.

BB

By swsweld (****)

Date 09-18-2014 18:22

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-18-2014 19:12 Edited 09-18-2014 19:15

Hey, what can I say? I got lazy after my mind bending over analysis of Toey's OP and then thinking I was just over thinking it when it should have been all taken care of when it wasn't really what he was after after all but it was at least to me hard to tell from the question wording and text of the OP when in fact it was... need I go on??

I was being sarcastic about taking a foreign language as we are getting more and more posts from those who don't speak fluent American or English and the language translators or their own efforts leave much to be desired. If I understood even the basics of some of the other languages it may be easier to follow their thinking.

Anyway, not sure what you were wondering. Just rambling and musing about being right after all. OP didn't sit quite right with the direction answers were going.

BTW, it's on my id page which I for one have pretty well filled out, but it's Brent E. Boling; BB. Just in case you were wondering about the second 'B'. So, I wasn't answering his quiz question, just my initials. EDIT: just as Henry, should be able to figure it out from offered up resources as well as study materials for the exam.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-18-2014 18:39

Now Toey... Don't you think that it would have been so much easier to answer your question or at the very least - steer you in the right direction if you wrote your original post with the question you have in this post???

So you mean to tell us that after all of the information that was posted in this thread regarding consumable inserts that you cannot answer this question on your own???
Are you preparing for the CWISP exam? which level? Why am I asking this???

Because if you took the time to do the research in order to learn enough about consumable inserts to be able to answer this question then you wouldn't need to ask us for the answer... And this is why I'm NOT going to give you the answer! why? Because if you really want to find out the answer then look for it in the information that's already posted in this thread... Think about it man! A question such as this one is simple enough to remember and answer if you take the time to study more on the topic with the information already found in this thread Toey... So go dig it out of the pile of knowledge found within this thread... That's as close as I'm going to get to help you find the answer...

Why? Because you won't really learn anything if any of us just gives you the answer without you exploring the topic enough to understand why the answer to the question is either A, B, C, or D... Learn it Toey!

Respectfully,
Henry

By Toey TNDT (**)

Date 09-20-2014 11:39

I got cswip 3.1 already . in my work not have consumable insert , i read ASME Section II part C A5.30 for checked its or cswip book material can't suggest good details .
Sorry in my language . I hope you will understand me

Regards

Toey Tndt

By Toey TNDT (**)

Date 09-20-2014 12:21

Thank you Henry .
I understand you mean ?
And you teach me in how to use too much time for explore answer by myself . Normally i will explore in website but keywords for search or answer look like plobplem in my language
I'm not western please understand me.
Regards ,

TOEY TNDT

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-21-2014 00:24

It's okay Toey...

Do you get Google where you are? Why do I ask? Because Google has an English to whatever language you need - translation tool... Good tool to use Toey...
Help you understand English words better... Just type in "Consumable insert" and it will translate to the language you choose... Good luck Toey and let us know what you find okay?

A simplified definition with an equally simplified explanation describing how one would use this:

"Consumable insert" = A metal ring that is of the same type of metal as the members being joined, with different metals to choose from for your application... The metal ring is inserted in between the two members, and once everything is properly fit up, the "insert" (metal ring) is tack welded to the 2 members just to keep it in place... The cross section of these "inserts" have different shapes to be used for various applications and you must pick the correct shape according to the type of joint configuration being used... Unless it is carbon steel and almost always with Aluminum, a backing purge is required even when tack welding the 2 members together...

Gas flow for backing purge should be at least 6 times the volume of the space inside where the joint is dammed or covered, and since Argon is lighter in weight than air, a vent hole must be made above the center line axis of the joint @ either end that is covered with some sort of cap, or tape covering so the internal pressure doesn't build up to the point where it becomes problem to complete the weld root properly and in closing the rest of the root pass...The backing gas flow rate should lowered to be no more than 2 scfh once the inside volume of the joint has been completely filled... Once the root pass is completed, for at least 1 or 2 more passes there should still be a backing purge used depending on the thickness of the pipe/tube wall... With some metals that are very reactive like titanium, the backing purge must be continuous or else the weld root can still become contaminated even after the cover pass has been completed...

If you have never welded with a consumable insert before, it is better to practice with the inserts before using them on an actual job to make sure that you are getting the necessary, consistent penetration and fusion @ both the external face of the root and the internal weld root... And if it is a code job, then you must be qualified to weld the joint with the consumable insert beforehand... I have tried to simplify this explanation to the best of my ability so it can be easily translated with the google translator to your native language... Now it is up to you to understand it, and if I left something out well forgive me but, I'm in hurry to go see a movie and I can't be late so you'll just have to settle with this brief explanation Toey. :eek:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Toey TNDT (**)

Date 09-21-2014 01:57

Henry .
Thank you so much about explain like ease
I think i read better than write

I can call you teacher or not ? :smile:

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-21-2014 03:59

Henry is quite satisfactory Toey... Besides, I'm retired these days so Henry is just fine... I am glad that I could be of some assistance.

Respectfully,
Henry

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 02-18-2019 12:11

A little late on making comments, but okay.
Developed for the Nuclear industry on some of the more critical systems. (Reactor Coolant System, cold leg, are a couple) My opinion. Being from Washington State and being trained as a pipe welder for the Hanford area, we had to learn to weld them. Super labor intensive to fit and tack, and it's like welding by brail. You can't see how the root is going in for sure, although you learned to recognize certain characteristics of the weld puddle to determine root bead profile. I worked 6 new construction Nukes in my carrier in the 80's and never saw it used. Since then I have developed PQ's for numerous types of pipe work and have never had it as a design criteria. I don't think it's practical or cost effective nor necessary to use today. My opinion. That and now $5.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

By 803056

Date 02-18-2019 16:35

I had to qualify a WPS to use inserts on 316 stainless for a Navy application about 2 years ago.

Otherwise, I agree with Jim on this subject. It does produce a uniform root face provided the welder is skilled at welding with the insert. The insert is the filler metal for the root bead. The welder has to be specifically qualified to weld with an insert. Fit up is slow and the ID of the pipe usually has to be counterbored to provide good alignment of the ID surfaces.

Al

By gmatsko Date 03-11-2019 05:09

Consumable Insert welding will provide a uniform root that is beautiful. I learned to 'pull' an insert on a nuclear plant many years ago. The inserts were used on the highest quality pipe and all were X Rayed. Very few weld joints that had an insert failed X Ray. The Procedure for tacking & fitting an insert follows:
1st. the land has to be consistent, 3/32 in. is what I remember.
2nd. Of course the pipe is counterbored. Most quality pipe for X Ray is counter bored to minimize the Hi / Lo during fit-up.
3rd. The insert is tack welded every inch with a tiny tack.
4th. A small part of the insert, about 1/4in. is removed at the 9:00 & 3:00 o clock areas. You could make this 3/8in. if you prefer.
5th. You file some of the land where you removed a part of the insert. This is to allow for weld shrinkage when you 'pull' the ring.
6th. Fit-up and tack the mating pipe weld end. Place the tacks between the first tacks.
7th. Save the pieces of the insert that were removed.
8th. Purge the weld joint.
9th. Start at one of the top areas say at 3:00. Start at least 1 1/2 in. from the 'window' at 3:00
10th. Have another welder who is qualified on GTAW or a fitter who knows what to look for view thru the window your progress.
11th. He can talk to you as your 'pulling' the ring. He can tell you ok, speed up a little or slow down. If a piece of the ring doesn't consume he can have you back up and reconsume it etc. The ring should be melting at the leading edge of the puddle. He is 'looking you in" is the term. We never pulled a ring in the blind unless it was absolutely necessary. You can leave unconsumed pieces of the ring in the root unless you have somebody to 'look' you in. Once the ring is consumed, you can start your 2nd. pass and also being looked in so as to not to reconsume your root which will cause 'suck back'. Make sure you stop some distance away from your windows. You can then insert the pieces of ring that you removed and consume them. Or. if your qualified for open root you can close your windows with filler wire. We done all of the RT required weld joints in this manner. The acceptance rate was over 98%. I welded on 2 nuclear plants and a couple fossil fuel plants where we used this method with great success.

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 03-11-2019 11:12

gmatsko,
I appreciate your experience. And thanks for sharing it. By your post it looks like you have a lot of experience with inserts. The problem that I see is that it's not necessary to use them. The company I work for is a very large EPC that has built a lot of Combined cycle power plants and a lot of Oil Gas Chemical plants. We have never had to use them nor do I see a need for them. We are welding P91 that is 2" thick and don't use them. We just finished a 254 SMO piping project that the thickest joint was 1.250" thick and didn't use them. They are labor intensive. As you said "of course the pipe is counter bored. Most quality pipe for X-ray is counter bored to minimize Hi/Lo during fit up." This is incorrect. Counter boring cost money. We only counter bore if it's above 5/8" thick. Using consumable inserts are not cost effective since you can beat Radiography welding open butt and it's faster. "The insert is tack welded every inch with a tiny tack," and they need to be staggered. On a 20" pipe this is super labor intensive. While a fitter/welder is fitting and tacking in an insert, I would already have the root complete. I learned to pull an insert in the Nuclear world also, in the 80's, and never had to use them. Welders can put very uniformed and beautiful roots in without having to use an insert. My opinion.

By gmatsko Date 03-12-2019 02:38

You are correct about the counter bore in 5/8 in.thick pipe and above. It has been many years and my memory isn't what it used to be.
Arcos and Electric Boat Division designed the Consumable Weld Insert. Since then, millions of feet of preformed rings have been used by the U.S. Navy and the UK Navy for the construction of their Nuclear fleets. Consumable inserts provide the highest quality root pass for welds that require radiography. The Nuclear Navy abhors open butt welding on critical pipe welds that require radiography. I wonder why?
My main reason for the tack up/ fit-up procedure that I described in detail was for those welders out there that have no experience with consumable insert welding. However, I agree with you about every thing else that you say about open butt welding / consumable insert welding. One other thing that I think is relevant. X Ray quality open butt welding requires a good amount of skill & training. Consumable insert welding
doesn't require the same amount of skill. You can train a welder to pull an insert in a day or two. Maybe that's one of reasons the Navy does not like open butt welding.
IMHO