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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Safety / GMAW Wire Sticks
- - By TimGary (****) Date 09-24-2014 17:29
By GMAW Wire Sticks, I mean the inadverdant sticking into the skin of yourself or your buddy with the wire that is left sticking out of the contact tip while you're not welding.
The wounds left behind by this unfortunate occurance often become infected and always hurt for a long time.

I guess I'm kind of old school about this, but my opinion is that after this happens once or twice, most Welders learn to not let it happen again, or at least not often.
I also know that when it does happen, to treat it with anti-bacterial ointment and a bandage, and keep it that way until it heals to avoid an infection.

However, in today's Safety Nazi controlled modern workplace, this type of thing cannot happen again, ever.
One train of thought to help "Engineer Out" this problem, is to use the wire retract capability of the equipment to reduce wire stickout length.

My question is, can anyone please share with me ideas or actions that you use to avoid wire sticks?

Thanks,
Tim Gary
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-24-2014 19:42
Hello Tim, this may be slightly off-topic from your question/query yet, I believe it falls right in line with similar safety issues. My partners and I talk often of how fabricators/welders will be lazy and not use their side-cutters to prepare their wire before welding and instead will hold the nozzle under the edge of a table or fabrication horse and simply burn it off. Then when someone else grabs the edge of said table or horse these metal "whiskers" will end up perforating your/their fingers. It is very aggravating and as far as we're concerned, very un-professional. How can it be addressed? CONSTANT reinforcement of the correct versus incorrect method/approach and the reasoning why by management and by other fabricators/fitters on the shop floor.

As you said though, most will learn after they have suffered injury time after time and finally it makes an impression on them that there is a better way. Unfortunately, many of these folks will cause injury to others way more than to themselves. I have also seen fitters experience the unpleasant result of using their hands to hold a corner to corner fit on a weldment together and when they go to tack it they relax their grip just a bit and as the wire passes through the gap it makes contact, electrifies, heats, and goes through their hand or finger(s). Here again, sometimes life takes it's natural course and hopefully learning takes place and these occurrences are not of a repeating nature and not overly serious.

I'll be interested to see how others respond to your query. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-24-2014 21:31 Edited 09-26-2014 08:54
Tim,

Time to get serious about this issue especially regarding the potential liability issues with respect to Workmen's Compensation if they want to push the case with an ambulance chaser lawyer, scarring that may qualify for compensation which happens a lot more often nowadays... Those ambulance chasers will spin anybody's account of what really happened and make sure it's in their client's favor...

You need to lay down the law that this will not be tolerated at all! Zero Tolerance is the goal and of course you know where I'm coming from so, I hope you don't think  I'm talking down to you because it's just the opposite... you need to implement a system of actions whereby the causes have definite consequences and, I'll leave the detail to your discretion as to how severe you want to discipline the violators...

You simultaneously must implement a new policy (posting the policy and going over it with your personnel before implementation) regarding PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) so that you can prevent this from happening as a genuine unintentional accident  which I don't consider an action that warrants a disciplinary counteraction from you...
So if you want to avoid a situation like I just wrote, then enforce this preventive measure by making it mandatory for the shop personnel to have the correct, proper safety equipment on when there in the shop... The same absolutely goes for minimum eye protection also...

They cannot use the excuse : "Well I never got the memo." because it will be documented when you pass out the new policy and they sign the acceptance form stating that they will abide by the new safety policy or disciplinary action will result... You might as well include the disciplinary action and what would happen to anyone who dares to ignore the policy repeatedly... Consider the possibility for whatever reason - for a limited amount of incidents allowed to shop personnel not having their required PPE's at the start of the shift by supplying them with a replacement if their PPE is is damaged  because if you don't put a limit, they'll keep requesting for the replacements as a means to avoid any disciplinary action for not really adhering to the new policy...

In other words in your head, try to envision as many scenario's within reason that your personnel may use to avoid discipline, or scenarios that are genuine reasonable exceptions so you can write a policy that covers all of the possibilities that you can think of.. But don't worry if you possibly forget or overlook some aspect because if the situation arises and it's not one where there's a potential life altering, or threatening incident as a result then you can fine tune. and slightly revise certain parts of the policy as you and your personnel become acclimated with it...

And always include the personnel with your idea's so that they have a sense of ownership regarding the new policy or any other new policy you or your boss if you have one - might implement in the future or they will as if they don't matter because if you want to maintain an atmosphere of good management/labor relations then always consider their opinions and suggestions that just may help in the long run...

So batten down the hatches and rig for impact Tim, because initially you will have some push back from one or two... Read them the riot act if you must, but try to avoid that as much as possible by slowly dividing and conquering one person at a time if necessary and then move on forward from there...Eventually everyone will get the message.:grin::wink:

P.S. Hey Allen! How's it going in Seahawks country?:smile:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-24-2014 22:17
Very good points Henry, and oh so true with regard to ambulance chasers/lawyers in a lot of cases. It is sad that folks can't see the simplicity of why/what they're doing is a bad choice and shouldn't be tolerated/allowed.

As to the Seahawks, I am not a real diehard sports person, yet my boys are and the Hawks appear to be in line for some success again this season, we'll see though and dad falls in line with their sports choices when they're all over for family functions and such. They like mom and dad's audio/visual set-ups better than their own and we like having the grand kids over(kids have been phased out, grand kids have been brought to the fore-front).

I hope that your health is tolerable, I certainly notice that it hasn't hindered your ability to be a great contributor here. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-24-2014 22:38
Thanks for those very kinds words Allan... There, I spelled it right this time:eek::roll::grin: Yes, it getting better as I notice the mistakes I make when typing these days.:wink:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-25-2014 13:09
Thanks for the reply Allan.
Agreed, trimming wire on the edge of a table or fixture is a very stupid thing to do, as I learned a long time ago after jabbing myself in the leg with the remaining "whisker".
When I train or coach Welders, I always threaten their very lives if I catch them doing so.

Henry - perhaps this is what you are referring to when enforcing a zero tolerance policy?
This is a separate issue from a Welder accidentally sticking himself or a co-worker with wire left sticking out of a GMAW or FCAW gun.
This usually happens while moving the gun around in tight spaces with one hand while trying to hold parts with the other, or by temporarily draping the gun over part of a weldment, allowing it to swing free or be bumped into.
I've heard of pranksters deliberately sticking a co-worker in the butt with wire while bending over, but if I ever saw this the prankster would be immediately fired.

We have Welders occasionally run wire through their fingers, as Allan mentioned, when trying to tack parts together close to where they are gripping the parts. I also train / coach welders to avoid this by pointing out that while an energized wire is under their skin, in the blood stream, should they become grounded they can receive the full shock of the amperage flowing through the wire, causing death by electrocution.

We're using predominately Miller Axcess GMAW equipment which has a wire retract feature. This feature automatically retracts the wire a pre-programmed amount when the gun trigger is released. I'm trying to find the maximum amount I can retract the wire without causing downtime from wire sticking in the end of the contact tip. This will help minimize the effect of a wire stick as it won't go as deep, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility.

Anybody have better ideas?

Thanks,
Tim Gary
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-25-2014 14:34
I do see where you are coming from Tim, I also believe that with the equipment that you are describing that you could adjust the retract function to "help" with errant "sticks" and aid with your situation. Unfortunately, the nature of the process does expose operators to the potential to still have those incidents. Awareness and training are still likely the best deterrent for avoiding those situations. I'm being a bit extreme with this example, yet it does parallel safety and training to prevent accidents: chainsaws are some of the most dangerous pieces of equipment out there. If you tried to make them safe to the point of zero accidents you might as well outlaw them altogether. Yet, they are in use everyday in both professional and non-professional uses and amazingly, accident rates are relatively low considering the possibilities for them.

I believe that there are times that individuals are either so new to the trade that they haven't yet been exposed to the "stick" scenario and thus need to be educated and in other cases they are old enough or experienced enough to know the possibility exists yet, they become complacent to it and end up having it happen to them anyway. Training and reminding, in my experience, is still the best deterrent to prevent the type of injury that you have questioned. Taking a few extra seconds to re-position yourself before proceeding with moving on in the fabrication or welding process, remaining aware of the "hot" or sharp end of the wire for being a potential for injury is still likely the best way to avoid injury. I too look forward to others comments here. There are likely others out there who have asked the same questions and have different and valuable information to contribute. Have a great day Tim. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-25-2014 16:08
Let me know what you come up with on that retract function.

We have Lincoln S500's with a similar retract function... But I believe it is really meant for making correct stickouts for arc starts in automated situations.  Where torch positioning is almost perfectly consistent. Some of our guys are wanting to use this for safety as outlined above.

My worry is that with manual operators terminating welds with a wide range of stickouts, how is it possible to set a retract length that is meaningful and does not risk pulling the electrode wire back into the contact tip.

It just doesn't seem to me like it will really work... But I would love to hear from somebody who has tried it with success.

This is one area where I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-26-2014 14:09
We're using GMAW with contact tips recessed into the nozzle 1/8".
The max I'm able to set the retract for is .4". This retracts the wire to the end of the contact tip when a Welder is tacking with the nozzle touching the material. (Not good practice I know, but happens).
When a welder is using a longer stickout, I still have 1/8" - 3/8" wire sticking out past the nozzle after retract. This reduces the penetration depth of a "wire stick" but doesn't eliminate the potential.
Maybe if I set the retract for .5 - .6", it will force the Welders to hold proper stickout, even when tacking, but of course, at the cost of production, and eliminate employee "buy-in".
I guess we need equipment that is smart enough to be able to retract wire to the end of the contact tip, regardless of stickout length.

Tim
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-26-2014 22:06
Hello Tim, I am being a bit of a "smart azz" here but you could probably come up with a proximity sensor system mounted in conjunction with the nozzle that would control the amount of retract regardless of initial nozzle position and original wire stick-out. Then you could patent the process and suggest it's implementation by the various OSHA agencies and when everyone is forced to comply you could retire a rich man. Sounds like a heck of a plan to me. Have a great day, Allan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-26-2014 09:22 Edited 09-26-2014 09:28
Tim,
Doesn't matter because the bottom linr is that it's a safety issue that needs ro be corrected because it is preventable...
That's what your insurance company is going to tell you... I'm going to post this again...

"You simultaneously must implement a new policy (posting the policy and going over it (TRAINING) with your personnel before implementation) regarding PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) so that you can prevent this from happening as a genuine unintentional accident which I don't consider an action that warrants a disciplinary counteraction from you...
So if you want to avoid a situation like I just wrote, then enforce this preventive measure by making it mandatory for the shop personnel to have the correct, proper safety equipment on when there in the shop... The same absolutely goes for minimum eye protection also...  Edit: And to follow what situation they were trained to avoid prior to implementing the new policy.

They cannot use the excuse : "Well I never got the memo." because it will be documented when you pass out the new policy and they sign the acceptance form stating that they will abide by the new safety policy or disciplinary action will result... You might as well include the disciplinary action and what would happen to anyone who dares to ignore the policy repeatedly..." Edit: Design the discipline to be incremental so that those who repeatedly get injured even though they were trained to avoid the situations, and behavior(s) that probably caused the accident, do not adjust their way of working around safety danger zones based on how they were trained to do so prior to implementing the new rules... In other words, start with a period of adjustment, and only remind the repeaters up to 3 times before writing them up if they continue and incrementally progress on the discipline scale until you believe the tipping point has been reached to either suspend or even terminate... Which is something you want avoid as much as possible while at the same time take the necessary steps to prevent these incidents in the first place... It's like walking a tightrope Tim!:eek::lol::wink::cool::grin::roll:

And this also:

"And always include the personnel with your idea's so that they have a sense of ownership regarding the new policy, or any other new policy you or your boss if you have one - might implement in the future or they will feel as if they don't matter because, if you want to maintain an atmosphere of good management/labor relations then always consider their opinions and suggestions that just may help in the long run..." Edit: Tim, Get them involved in solving the problem together with you... And then implement and enforce the new policy you come up with... Hey, you do what you have to Tim because all I'm doing is giving suggestions that you asked for in your OP even though you may not agree with some of them.

Good luck.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-26-2014 13:51
Thanks for the input Henry, I appreciate it.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that you're 100% right, from an Insurance company or what I term in my non-politically correct way as a "Safety Nazi" point of view.

"You simultaneously must implement a new policy (posting the policy and going over it (TRAINING) with your personnel before implementation) regarding PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) so that you can prevent this from happening as a genuine unintentional accident which I don't consider an action that warrants a disciplinary counteraction from you...
So if you want to avoid a situation like I just wrote, then enforce this preventive measure by making it mandatory for the shop personnel to have the correct, proper safety equipment on when there in the shop... The same absolutely goes for minimum eye protection also...  Edit: And to follow what situation they were trained to avoid prior to implementing the new policy."


That statement is 100% accurate and if fully implemented would solve the issue. We are in compliance with that statement, to a certain degree. We provide large quantities of safety training, including hazard prevention for this paticular instance. We also require more PPE for everyone who enters the shop than I've seen anywhwere else. The problem in this particular case is that in order to completely prevent this from happening as a genuine unitnentional accident, we would have to include in our PPE requirements full body armor for everyone who enters the shop. Better yet, we could ban GMAW welding all together, but then again all welding is hazardous, so let's not weld at all, or even better yet, the best way to ensure that nobody can get injured in the silghest way would be to close the buisness. Sorry, I don't mean to be a smart ass, but I think you know what I mean.

I feel the best way to handle most safety issues is to first try to engineer them out. The wire retract method is a good start to that. Next would be be to get the equipment manufacturers involved in equipment redesign, but maybe someone out there has already figured out a better way, which is why I'm asking around.

Thanks again for your input.

Tim
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-26-2014 23:36
After industry gets involved then all of the shops with regular non-engieered for safety welding equipment are burdened with being non-compliant or upgrading the equipment. Sounds like a good deal for the equipment manufacturers.

For some companies the cost to implement "engineering controls" is nothing. They just buy new $10000.00 power sources and wire feeders. What if we all decided that smoke, EMF, repetitive strain, are all things that need to be eliminated. Though the risk is small probably based on the number of welders, it is still a risk. EVERYTHING can be engineered out. The level at which it becomes a problem for an organization is more related to the organization than it is to the problem.

How many companies have installed fume extracting Mig Guns to limit welders exposure to ozone? Not many. But how many have strict and strongly enforced policies for the lifesaving safety glasses ?

Just some of my thoughts.

As I said before, I'm all for safety. I also believe all accidents could have been prevented but also believe they NEVER will be. I gotta worry about mine 1st, others 2nd.

Awareness, A Safety Culture that promotes Employee input on hazard elimination, Management that supports safety for safety and not compliance, and training to support it all.

Gerald
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 09-26-2014 23:23
I may be looking at this the wrong way. I too am very concerned with safety. But the idea of "engineering out" hazards can really get into some tricky places. 

When engineering is not practical, protective measures are completely fine. PPE to protect the individuals skin from hot/sharp wire is the same PPE that is used to protect the individual from molten sparks. If the engineering controls are workable, then by all means do them. But Could the safety Nazis then also decide its better to use a certain transfer mode, process etc.. just because it makes less sparks?

I truly think PPE and Training for awareness are key. Lets not assume all welders must have engineering controls. When I have taught "Welding Safety" in the past I have tried to stress the safety hazards that are inherent to that process.

Gerald
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-27-2014 06:16
Hi Gerald, Tim,

I was a plant manager for a company in Queens, NY that employed at peak times 40+welders and other craftspeople that were tasked to their own roles in the overall production output for the plant...

In the beginning of my tenure there, I had to implement a new set of safety rules and policies because of the unheard of percentage of workplace accidents that were @ least 95% preventable bur were not previously addressed by the former plant manager... this company was bleeding like a stuck pig regarding their track record...

The first thing I did was to call toolbox meeting before the start of every shift continuously and it was adopted as a normal and permanent operating safety procedure...
when we came together as a team and started to really express our concerns to each other each morning which resulted in adding some excellent suggestions from the welders and other workers to the final draft of the new safety rules and policies... And even after I implemented the new safety policies, I didn't stop with the toolbox meetings which I learned from when I was working @ Electric Boat, and I told them this because we had some excellent safety records going on up in Rotten Groton, Ct... 

In fact, there were only two fatal accidents (too many IMO!) during my time of employment @ EB... The safety departments as well as naval safety personnel subsequently discovered that both accidents were the result of poor interaction, and communication between the crafts... A complacent safety atmosphere of cooperation from various departments, and knowing ahead of time that personnel from different departments than their own would be working in those spaces at any given time throughout each of the 3 shifts daily... So yes I do know about the impossibility of totally eliminating all sort of potential accidents - especially the ones because of human error... The best achievement is mitigating as much as possible, and remaining vigilant and proactive to maintain a successful safety atmosphere

However, the real enemy I learned that had to be taken seriously was complacency, because no matter how well one plans for creating a safety focused environment & culture in the workplace, if complacency is not considered a serious threat to the overall plan, then everything that was implemented would end up being a complete waste of time and effort...

As a result of those daily toolbox meetings, the company I was in charge of went from being a complete embarrassing example of not focusing in fostering a serious safety atmosphere & culture to a company with no accidents whatsoever once the new rules and policies went into effect... that record continued up to the very last day I was employed there... Did it continue to behave that way? I really couldn't tell you because once I left for greener pastures, I never went back to check in and see how things were there... I do have to say that being so successful in implementing the safety procedures that resulted in such a profound change in that company is one of the proudest achievements out of all of the various milestones I reached throughout my career... It was without a doubt the most satisfying of achievements I reached up to this day.

Nobody is going achieve perfection on a sustained basis... Shooot, we may never even reach it in our lifetime, but we can strive to reach it even if only for a brief period in time...  And perfection only becomes permanent when we pass on to the heavens and join our lord in his Kingdom of perfection... The Kingdom of Heaven. Amen.

Respectfully,
Henry
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