Project Specification

Date 11-03-2014 14:04

Joey,

"How will you handle this situation? "

Tough one there ol' Pal.
Who do you answer to/ie. signs your billing invoice?
This is who can truly answer your question and give the final word on what is acceptable.

"which will not jeopardise your position as TPI.,"
By all means review and with great detail all that is presented to you by the Contractor.
Do NOT!!! Respond to the Contractor! Neither verbally or in writing. Your opinions mean Nothing.
Report only back UP through YOUR chain of command and await further instructions.

This is a very sticky situation that you are neither qualified or expected to participate in. You are placing yourself into the Role of Consultant and not a TPI, and you could be sucked into a hole you do not want to be in.

Rule #1 as TPI;
You do not work for the Contractor.
They are not privy to your findings or opinions.
You are not their friend.
You are not their "Go TO Guy".
That was more than one rule, but....

On a side comment;
It is too bad you did not know that the Contractor was in need of a CWI for consultation purposes prior to this. That could have been a very lucrative gig.

By js55

Date 11-03-2014 14:42

Who exactly are you a TPI for?

By Joey

Date 11-03-2014 15:44

TPI hired by contractor but recommended by the Owner.
The project specification was sent to the Owner's Engineer & TPI at same time for review.

It seams the Owner's Engineer is technically weak. The problem is the basis used
to create the project specification is unknown. Only the contractor knew about it.
I know that you can leave the decision to the Owner's Engineer but you don't want
the engineer to simply accept the contents especially when you are against the work scope given to
the TPI. Example " TPI to prepare the Weld Test Plan". Is this work scope normally given to TPI or contractor's QC? :roll:

By js55

Date 11-03-2014 16:26

The way I see it is if you are hired by the contractor you aren't a TPI.

By Superflux (****)

Date 11-03-2014 16:32

Are you perchance on an assignment in Asia?
If so, that explains a lot.

Job Titles and Duty/descriptions can get lost in translation.
For instance, a Notary Public in the USA is a not an occupation but rather a certification.
In Mexico, it is a profession similar to a Lawyer or paralegal as I understand it.

By SCOTTN

Date 11-03-2014 17:10

I've been attempting to respond to the initial post. before I could finish and post, I had several interruptions and I see that others have responded with their thoughts and comments, but I'll go ahead and post mine.

"No client and no project specification except for the one made by the contractor, which its requirements are based on unknown references. A seemingly technically weak owner’s engineer"...

An inspector, whether in house, 3rd party, or whatever, is morally obligated to preserve the health and well being of the public by performing duties of welding inspection in a conscientious and impartial manner to the full extent of the inspectors moral and civic responsibility and qualification. With the contractor preparing the specifications, rather than the engineer, that’s a red flag to me. I know in my structural experience, there have been smaller projects from time to time that have no specifications. When we encounter this, we send the customer a letter stating that fabrication will be in accordance with the latest AWS D1.1, the latest AISC Manual of Steel Construction, and the surface prep and painting will be in accordance with the latest SSPC Vol 1 Good Practices and Painting, and SSPC Vol 2 Systems and Specifications. The letter has to be sign off and returned before fabrication begins. If we follow these codes, we know that we’re producing a quality product, however, and this is what concerns me… whether some sort of alternate criteria is required or not. It’s typically an EOR’s responsibility to assess the suitability of a particular specification to a particular project, as well as to approve an alternate should the need arise. If it were me in your situation, I would review the contractor’s specs. If I see anything in these specs that would compromise my integrity as an inspector and/or compromise the safety of the general public, I would speak up, whether it jepoardizes my position or not.

By Joey

Date 11-04-2014 01:05

The arrangement is the contractor is in charge of hiring a third party inspector (TPI) from accredited Inspection firm.
The owner will review & accept / reject the proposed TPI before he/she can start to work in the project.

The TPI represent an Inspection Firm hired by the contractor. The TPI issued report using the Inspection Firm letter head.
The inspection firm provides professional indemnity insurance and public liability insurance for the service provided by their TPI.

By qcrobert (***)

Date 11-04-2014 17:26

The way I see it is if you are hired by the contractor you aren't a TPI.

Js55,
Mid 90's worked as TPI on seismic retrofit of bridges in Northern California. As stipulated in contract, Caltrans required the contractor to hire TPI (AWS CWI) to oversee contractor's welded work with reports submitted to both contractor and Caltrans EOR. I invoiced the contractor directly for my wages.

Never liked the relationship of being paid by the one I was overseeing. Only one job went bad. Took me a year to recover my last 30 day cycle invoicing when contractor was dismissed from the project by Caltrans due to NCRs.

Robert

By Joey

Date 11-05-2014 01:51

That's normal here. TPI hired by contractor with approval from the Owner. The TPI's reports are address to the owner / or contractor.
As a TPI, there is no significant whether you are hired by the Owner or Contractor because you act as independent party representing your company.
I've worked in many projects like Chevron (formerly Caltex), Shell, ExxonMobil...these owners have their own hired Inspectors representing them in addition
to the involvement of TPI in the project....so many times the TPI has to act as a referee between Contractor's QC & Owner's Inspector. :grin:

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-03-2014 23:11 Edited 11-04-2014 01:46

Joey,

You better bend over (wrong picture, straighten up you guys) take some deep breaths, then try that pass again!! :confused:

If someone is paying you, you always have a customer/client. If you truly have no customer/client...Run, don't walk, Run Away Just as FAST as you can!!

Since when does the contractor produce their own project specifications? That is not even in the ballpark of reasonable, professional, responsible, ethical, or any other appropriate descriptive word.

I think you are confusing the roles of Consultants, Third Party Inspectors (QA) and Patsy (that's not as in Patsy Cline, that's as in a Fall Guy).

Now, an Owner should not even ask you to consider being put in such a position. The conflict of interest issues could be extensive, even though all parties are aware of the situation. That is, if you are going to end up being the TPI on this particular project. If not, then we may be looking at a possibility.

What is your business relationship with the Owner? The Contractor? The Engineer? The QC team? These are questions you need to ask yourself to see if it will jeopardize your position, your reputation, your pay, or your career.

Even reading your next post in this thread, I'm not sure we have really been given a complete enough picture to give you much advice, YET. Other than, Watch Your Back. I smell fish.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 46.00

Date 11-03-2014 23:18

I really love you guys!!!

By 803056

Date 11-04-2014 01:19

Think OEM!

The manufacturer is the designer as well as the manufacturer. Think of a manufacturer that builds engines for the consumer, i.e., Cummings, Detroit, Fairbanks-Morris. They design and build their engines. The consumer selects an engine that best suits their needs.

Open web joists; designed and built as a manufactured commodity that typically isn't subject of on-site QC.

Pre-engineered buildings that are owned and erected by the contractor and rented to the end user.

There are many examples of projects that do not have owner generated project specifications.

Consider buying an electric lamp, television set, etc. at your local appliance store. Do you generate a project specification or do you select the appliance based on cost and performance?

Best regards - AL

By 46.00

Date 11-04-2014 01:25

Yes I see your perspective!

By Joey

Date 11-04-2014 01:51

Yes it's true. But when you use your engine for public transportation, you will write a specification that suits the statutory requirements.
Similarly, this is applicable to building construction. Even though you design & built the structures, the project specification still in line with the goverment regulations otherwise, the contractor will not get the permit to build the structures.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-04-2014 01:57

Leave it to Al to see a fourth side to a three sided structure. :lol:

Good points as usual sir.

And, Joey's latest addition also makes sense. Regardless of where he may be working. I have been called in to do in shop inspections because the Fabricator was not a Pre-Approved Fabricator from any agency and also did not have an in house QC program that was at all acceptable. At that point, I did do their QC work and the pay still came from the Owner but was deducted from the pay that the Fabricator would have gotten on his original bid. So, I still represented the Owner as a TPI but did QC in the shop at the Fabricator's expense. Following the shop fabrication we also performed the field erection inspections, still the same contractor, did both QC and QA, basically.

So, Joey, depending upon some other facts surrounding your particular situation you probably can accomplish what is being asked of you. It just didn't make sense at first.

Glad we made your day Glyn. :lol:

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 46.00

Date 11-04-2014 02:45

Hey! Thats why this place is so great!

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-04-2014 04:50

BINGO!!! Give that man a Cigar! :eek:

You're really pushing the boundaries there Joey. :eek:

Here's another angle... What has the inspection agency that you represent, clearly addressed to you what you can and cannot do with the contractor with respect to your job description and duties... Now after you digest all of that and knowing that you're a CWI, do you remember the code of conduct when you were studying for the exam? Use both sources as datum points and extrapolate from them to get the appropriate answer you seek. :grin:

In other words, listen to your conscience my friend. :grin:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Joey

Date 11-04-2014 06:42

The only concern is if the owner’s engineer will simply accepted the specification that the TPI don’t agree with the work scope :cry:

. The contractor may have the guts to ask the owner to replace the TPI company when failure to comply with the approved specification :cry:

. This is really a sensitive situation. Remembering your Boss advice …… “hey Joey, don’t let our competitors to have the chance to penetrate in the project belong to us” remember you must have a good rapport with our customers. They are the one paying our salaries.” :sad:

Henry, I politely turn down the contractor’s request for the reason that I have no basis to review their project specification. Our sales personnel are technically qualified & I will ask them to explain to the contractor that the scope of work they’ve requested is not part of the agreed quotation for TPI. As we know, any variation or change order is subject to additional cost. The sales personnel must know the suitable person for the job requested. I push it to our sales people to handle this sticky situation :cool:

Thanks to all.

Joey

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-04-2014 07:05

Good choice, and I see that the pressure was coming from the higher ups in your outfit because this customer is one of the major clients that produce a substantial amount of revenue based on the amount of work they contract with your company... I think you made the right decision Joey... All the best to you! :grin:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Joey

Date 11-04-2014 07:34

Hey Henry, you too.. take care.