4140 to 1045

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-08-2015 06:09

Well, if nobody has "Weldcomed" you yet then may i be the first... WELDCOME RICHARD! To The Worlds' Greatest Welding Forum of The AWS!!! :smile:

Okay then... Many questions come to mind from your initial query so I'm going to ask a few if you don't mind so you can help us to fill in as many details as possible...

1.) What is the governing welding code or standard for this job? Are you working from a WPS? Does the WPS state that you must use FCAW?

2.) What position is the welding? Any out of position welding involved? Are you thoroughly cleaning each pass from the root pass up to the cover pass after each weld deposit?

3.) Is this a repair? Why do I ask this? Because you wrote: "4140 base 12" dia. 1' thick. Weld v-groove is approx 5/8" deep and 5/8"wide using multiple passes." Also, what is the length of the weld groove?

4.) On which material is the weld groove?

5.) Why are you using FCAW when you could be using GMAW Spray transfer instead in order to eliminate your slag removal problem in the first place? Is it because it's an out of position V groove? Why not use another process instead?

6.) How are the 2 members connected or are they separate from each other? Do you have a drawing or a sketch? A picture is like quite a few words explaining much more at times...

7.)When you say pre-heat temp of 500 degrees F slow cool, what is the maximum interpass temp? And is there Post weld Heat treatment (PWHT) afterwards?

8.) What are your welding parameters (voltage and current and what diameter wire are you using as well as your shielding gas if any and what are your gun parameters such as the contact tip to work distance, etc...

9.) Why are you using FCAW instead of GMAW Spray transfer?

10.) Why are you using FCAW instead of GMAW spray transfer or even GTAW @ a higher than usual current and the appropriate rated torch with 1/8" dia filler wire instead?

There's so many more questions to post but I'll just leave the 10 I posted in order to get a slightly better visualization of what type of actual job this is and possibly understand why FCAW is being used in the first place because the use of a different, non slag-producing process would instantly eliminate your problem it it is indeed slag that's remaining on the surface of the weld deposit... And if this is your only problem with this job.

Respectfully,
Henry

By 803056

Date 01-08-2015 14:01 Edited 01-08-2015 14:06

Good questions Henry.

You always make a point that we need details; details of the material, details of the welding process, details of the welding parameters, details of the preheat, interpass temperature, and post weld heat treat. You hit nearly everything. Once we have the details, we can get to work.

One detail I would like to add is a sketch of what is being welded and one more, what is the intended service?

One detail that was provided is the AISI numbers for the materials being welded; AISI 1045 and 4140. Both are on the mid to high range of carbon relative to ease of welding. The 4140 is a moly chrome steel which increases the carbon equivalency up around 0.6 (depending on the CE equation selected). The preheat for that alloy can be higher than the 500 degrees I saw. Post weld heat treatment, I would say is a must.

I would suggest meeting the mechanicals of the AISI 1045 material and I would insist on using very low hydrogen filler metal. This is a multiple pass weld, so the alloy of the filler metal can increase the CE of the weld deposited against the AISI 4140. That should not be a major issue as one deposits filler metal against the AISI 1045, but the root bead may be an issue unless a transition layer (butter layer) is deposited against the AISI 4140 first, i.e., that before fitting the two component together.

Best regards - Al

By Jarhead1 (**)

Date 01-08-2015 20:39

Well, if nobody has "Weldcomed" you yet then may i be the first... WELDCOME RICHARD! To The Worlds' Greatest Welding Forum of The AWS!!! :smile:

HELLO HENRY AND HAPPY AGAIN TO JOIN THE AWS TEAM.....
Okay then... Many questions come to mind from your initial query so I'm going to ask a few if you don't mind so you can help us to fill in as many details as possible...

1.) What is the governing welding code or standard for this job? Are you working from a WPS? Does the WPS state that you must use FCAW? THERE IS NO WELD CODE/NOTES THAT SAID WE MUST USE FCAW

2.) What position is the welding? Any out of position welding involved? Are you thoroughly cleaning each pass from the root pass up to the cover pass after each weld deposit? FLAT POSITION. THAT IS THE ISSUE CLEANING THE SLAG. THATS WHY I WOULD LIKE TO USE A SOLID WIRE

3.) Is this a repair? Why do I ask this? Because you wrote: "4140 base 12" dia. 1' thick. Weld v-groove is approx 5/8" deep and 5/8"wide using multiple passes." Also, what is the length of the weld groove? NEW PART. IT IS A DIAMETER>WELD DIA APPROX 6-8 IN.

4.) On which material is the weld groove? BOTH - THE V-GROOVE IS IN THE CENTER OF BOTH MATERIALS. THEY HAVE A FLANGE ON THEM.

5.) Why are you using FCAW when you could be using GMAW Spray transfer instead in order to eliminate your slag removal problem in the first place? Is it because it's an out of position V groove? Why not use another process instead? I AM FAIRLY NEW TO COMPANY - I THINK THE OLD SPEC CALL OUT IS FOR E-7018.
THAT IS WHY WE WENT TO FCAW. WE CAN USE AN OPTIONAL SOLID MIG WIRE RECOMMENDED FOR 4140 TO 1045. WE ARE APPLYING PREHEATS AND SLOW COOL. CAN YOU PLEASE RECOMMEND WIRE AND PREHEATS. YOUR THOUGHTS ON USING ER70S-6 WIRE.

6.) How are the 2 members connected or are they separate from each other? Do you have a drawing or a sketch? A picture is like quite a few words explaining much more at times...NOT SURE ON HOW TO ATTACH A SKETCH.

7.)When you say pre-heat temp of 500 degrees F slow cool, what is the maximum interpass temp? And is there Post weld Heat treatment (PWHT) afterwards? CONSTANT TEMP OF 500F THROUGHOUT WELD PROCESS WITH TORCH AFTER WELD WE COVER PARTS WITH HEAT BLANKET.

8.) What are your welding parameters (voltage and current and what diameter wire are you using as well as your shielding gas if any and what are your gun parameters such as the contact tip to work distance, etc...

9.) Why are you using FCAW instead of GMAW Spray transfer?

10.) Why are you using FCAW instead of GMAW spray transfer or even GTAW @ a higher than usual current and the appropriate rated torch with 1/8" dia filler wire instead?

There's so many more questions to post but I'll just leave the 10 I posted in order to get a slightly better visualization of what type of actual job this is and possibly understand why FCAW is being used in the first place because the use of a different, non slag-producing process would instantly eliminate your problem it it is indeed slag that's remaining on the surface of the weld deposit... And if this is your only problem with this job.

Respectfully,
Henry

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-09-2015 07:28

Hello again Richard Doman!

I have to defer myself until later today as I have been battling the effects of a cold and have required some TLC & R&R until later on this afternoon... So if you'll excuse me until then.

Respectfully,
Henry

By Tyrone

Date 01-09-2015 11:57

Hi Richard,
If you have parts that are already in service that was welded with E-7018, without any problems, you should have no problems with ER70S-6.
Keep everything the same (ie. pre and post heat treatments).

This is the simplest option in my mind.

Tyrone

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-09-2015 20:04

Okay,
In your initial post your wrote this: "to weld shaft Material 4140 to 1045. Shaft material (mushroom shape part) is approx 3" dia. 4140 base 12" dia. 1' thick. Weld v-groove is approx 5/8" deep and 5/8"wide." And then in this most recent post you wrote: "NEW PART. IT IS A DIAMETER>WELD DIA APPROX 6-8 IN." Well, which dimension is it? 3" or, 6 to 8" in diameter? And you also wrote: "BOTH - THE V-GROOVE IS IN THE CENTER OF BOTH MATERIALS. THEY HAVE A FLANGE ON THEM." I'm confused with those statements and I believe you meant to write bevel instead of flange correct? In other words, if you could post a drawing of the joint a lot of the confusion for these somewhat conflicting dimensions could be clarified and we would all have a better understanding of what type of joint configuration you're working with...

So if you want to post a drawing of the joint in question, here's the link to the "Help" section for this forum: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/forum_help.pl
And this is how you post an image on to your post: "How do I attach images and other files to posts?

If attachments are enabled in the forum and "within" the specific board you want to post in, first submit your post without the attachment, after that you can click the post's Attach button to go to the upload page. Posting and uploading is separated this way because uploads can fail for various reasons, and you probably don't want to lose your post text when that happens."

After you reach the the upload page, you'll see this within the page:

Post Attachments

You can also upload files by dropping them onto the form.
Upload
File(s) (max. file size 977k) Caption
Browse No File Selected
Caption
" Rectangular location to type in a Caption"

"Square must be checked in order to show the image in the post"
"[ ]" Embed (only JPG, PNG and GIF images)
" Upload" button

Finally, if you cannot visualize the attachment page still, then look here and then compare what you see in this link to what I just previously laid out to you above of what you would find in the attachment page... Here's the link to the attachment page: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/post_attach.pl?pid=264587

Hopefully you'll be successful in posting an image that will illustrate what the joint configuration consists of... Btw, I agree with you Tyrone... Finally, what is the "interpass" temperature when welding the joint together? I understand what temp you're using for preheat but you do not articulate what the interpass temperature is which is pretty important especially when welding on that thickness of 4140 base metal shaft... You do understand what I mean when I write "interpass temperature" right? Could you tell us what this is for?

Respectfully,
Henry

By Metarinka (****)

Date 01-13-2015 01:23

If this is new clean material (which is generally the case with 4140) I would suggest against ER70S-6 that's a very high silica/flux content wire that tends to give you a decent amount of slag. ER70S-2 or 3 would be sufficient and tends to weld a little better. I quickly looked up the Yield of both 1045 and 4140, they are both in the 80's to 90K range such that ER70S-X is probably undermatched if tensile strength is concerned. I would recommend bumping up to ER80S-X or contacting your wire vendor and codes for recommendations for filler selection.

On the issue of preheat and postheat, 41XX generally require a proper PWHT schedule to prevent cold cracking. From my time in aerospace we welded the part in a heated fixture and would cap with a heat blanket at set temperature within a few minutes of finishing weld, held for 8 hours with a set ramp down temperature, any less would significantly increase residual stress, leading to cold cracking or failure under load in service.

Will this happen on your part? Who knows i'm not the engineer and I don't know it's intended fitness for use, but if someone is paying for 4140, it pays to spend the few extra bucks and generate a procedure or copy one.

By Plasma56 (**)

Date 01-10-2015 22:48

I'm not much of an over thinker so I'll keep my reply mostly brief. LOL. I don't think so.
" having issues removing all slag"
If you are having problems with slag entrapment issues look at the parameters and the welder doing the job.
The manufacture gives you a range of operating parameters. If they are being followed only one guy left on that food chain. Blame him. Really. He's your problem. And responsibilities have to be accepted to move forward.

But calling it out, education and understanding the process in it's application is the issue.
Blame the welder.
And when your done passing blame look for solutions and corrections. Life is better with an education.
While you could throw him under the bus, you could also pull him out of the way. Help is available.

While talk is cheap, some don't get as much for the training dollar they spend, as they should receive in returned education about what they are learning. Nor do most look for the good education in free or cheap often because of it's perceived value..
My talk is free so take it for what's it's worth, it won't do you much for harm, with none intended. It's just talk...welder granola.

Slag is trapped for a number of reasons and preventable with correction. While I would always advocate process improvements, you have a solveable problem. Solve it.
Wires do not cause slag inclusions or entrapments, the welder does. With a slag you drag, maybe it's being pushed? Simple correction problem solved... maybe?
Don't over think it, but do some thinking and some learning.

This issue of slag entrapment and solutions to that problem seems to be yours to correct? If you search FCAW, Stick Out, Shielding Gas, Gun Angle, travel speed you'll agree... Your problem is preventable and easily correctable. Not that hard a task but it does require a degree of time and effort. Application and understanding aside, you have to apply and do.

I like the part about no code to follow. Like walking with out underwear.

Having said that, one welder to another might suggest short listing the reading to stickout and relationships affecting amperage and voltage. Those key points working with gun inclination and travel speed should solve your problem.
While you can't rule out a hand that shakes like a dog crapping a razor blade, or being the guy in need of an eye exam and corrective lenses as a possible reason for the slag entrapments, the welder isn't managing something case closed.

I said I'd be brief so I am about done.

Switching wire could work.
However, If your problem was ER70S-6 leaving you silicon islands what's your solution then? That question by the way, that was heavy conversation in the forum.
Never hurts to do a bit of reading friend.
All free, and mostly brief. Good luck with that.

By 46.00

Date 01-11-2015 02:16

WOW!

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-11-2015 17:29

Good to see you back Glynn...

By 46.00

Date 01-12-2015 03:31

Thanks

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-12-2015 14:53

Very salty

Not brief

Priceless :)

By Jarhead1 (**)

Date 01-12-2015 22:30

PLASMA56
No Disrespect - YOUR RESPONSE WAS QUITE AMUSING....We need more people like you on this forum. The (AWS) Welding Brotherhood is Strong.
Tyrone, Henry your response was right on and I appreciate your help.
Machined out the slag, rewelded all parts and changed our weld processes.
ER70S-6 did the trick.
Interpass Temp 500F
Pre-Heat temp 500F
Slow Cool under heat blanket.
75/25 mix of argon/co2

Ahhh - Silicone Islands Yes; ground that out.
I read that ER70S-2 has much less silicone. Will get a sample spool and give this a shot. Shorter arc length as well.

Thanks AWS Members.

By Plasma56 (**)

Date 01-13-2015 11:12

Hi Jarhead1,

Thank you bud.
But we need more of you. People who ask questions to get answers. And more importantly, they get answers that make sense.
I think we all bring something to the table.
At the end of the day, a small sip of water.

And yes, the brotherhood is strong here. These guys are good. Truly.
It doesn't pain me at all to say it.
Any stories I tell are in part weaved with the gems of wisdom, pearls of explainations, diamonds of the ages, derived and gleaned from these fine gentleman.
Simplifying the concept or making it a whole lot less snooze fest isn't always a bad thing.I try.
hahahhahaha. But not everybody is my serious. Thats welding.
I offer up a different spin, my intentions are good.
I'm ok with amusing. A spoon full of sugar.

Jarhead1, My son, my son, I shouldn't be, but.. you took the easy way out. While I can smile with your success, I hope you're sharing with me a mild disappointment.
Your success was not in the welding of the unit with solid wire, although that advice was solid, seemingly worked mostly like a charm, good to go.
It was your mention of arc length. You are seeing something. Good. The force is strong in this one.

My musing of the moment is that if you managed to get a solid wire to transition into a spray, I'd say so close, but no cigar.
Streaming flow, snap crackle and pop. The latter three better with milk at this hour of night.
But we should talk further on that FCAW slag thing friend. If for no other reason, because we can.
It's up to you.
All the best.