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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Porosity, GTAW, A36/4140
- - By flamin (**) Date 01-08-2015 15:01
Hey guys,

We are attempting to create a WPS to AWS D17.1 welding A36 to 4140.

The material thickness is 3/16 plate
Position 2F, T-joint,
Preheat is 280°-300°F
Process GTAW
3/16 Fillet, single pass
100% Argon, @ 25 CFH
Filler is ER70S-2 (Per cust request)
Plates are bead blasted and wire brushed prior to welding

Final weld appearance looks picture perfect, good fusion at the toes, no surface porosity, cracks, undercut, overlap, flat weld profile. As we cut through the test plate, there is quite a bit of porosity along the weld interface between both pieces. The porosity is about Ø.060" (average). Inside the porosity is clean and relatively shiny, which leads me to think it might be hydrogen? Welding conditions are pretty well ideal, everything is clean, or so it seems.

We haven't tried switching out argon bottles yet, just in case there's moisture contamination??

Anyway, I'd like to get some opinions on what else might be causing this or if you see any red flags in the process.

As always, your advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 01-08-2015 15:50
Have you check for leaks in the lines that would be my first thing to do and make sure that you're cup is big enoght for gas cover.

        M.G
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-08-2015 15:57
Bead blasting?

Glass beads are basically silicon oxides. You are most likely imbedding the silicon oxide into the surface of the parts.

Try removing the mill scale with a fresh aluminum oxide grinding disk. Use a 4 inch or large grinder and let the machine do the work. In other words, do not bear down hard on the grinding disk to make it work. That tends to slow the wheel and imbed grit into the surfaces.

Flush the parts with virgin acetone and follow that with 90% isopropyl alcohol. Let everything air dry. Do not use shop compressed air because it will contain some lubricating oil.

Proceed to weld the parts as you normally would, but wipe down the rod with isopropyl alcohol and let them air dry.

Insist that the welder wear clean gloves intended to be used with GTAW. They are no oil tanned, thus they are oil free.

Wash any fixtures  you are using.

Cleaning is the corrective measure to eliminate the hydrogen sources. However, the problem, if it was a hydrogen problem, would more than likely be a cracking problem in the alloy steel rather than porosity. 

Let us know the outcome and whether there is an improvement.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Plasma56 (**) Date 01-08-2015 17:25 Edited 01-16-2015 00:54
Thinking a bit differently, you have a spectrum disorder.
.02% and your normal.
.05% and your border line.

You go to a bar, order a rum and coke and the tender under pours. Under pour enough and you save money. Tip him good and you've made a friend.

Don't over think it and I won't sugar coat it. I just suggested your possibly using a cheaper filler wire, or a filler wire with not enough, or the wrong amounts of deoxidizers.
The difference between drunk and sober is a very thin line. Why wouldn't a % make a difference here? More or less.
When something is giving you gas, it's usually what you ate. Something is not breaking the gas down enough to allow it to disolve, pass or prevent collection. Got gas?
My guess, It's your wire and the content, and quanity of deoxidizers.  While less can suck, more isn't always better. The tender double pours and you might be blowing chunks as the evening goes on?
It's my guess. And I have been wrong before.

But the ER70S-2 would flow nicely. So will most coat hangers when you remove the varnish. But if you want to cure the porosity, and the welder isn't screwing it up, blame the consumable.

Good luck with that.

EDIT... and further comment.

Buddy, no disrespect intended.
You don't get a trophy. You didn't pass go, and I'm disappointed. Don't let the former bother you as much the latter.
I assume your a student in a program and have too put into practice what you have been learning for education. I also suggest while you hope for a good mark solving the porosity problem as you discover through lab work, the so called proof in the pudding, that this is it. Your done. Good to go and as good as it needs to get. You have the answers.
If I'm wrong beat me with a stick.

Between you me and the peeps, this has been done before. Boring. Search the forum. 
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=27706;hl=70S%5c-2
And it's free. FREE! These guys really take the thinking out of it with easy answers. My reply wasn't easy.
I should have said the welder was the problem but I wanted someone else to kick the brother in arms.

But your done. Smart as you need to be. Atta boy.
Pity the materials instructor who see's such originality. Pity the student who's instructor fosters it. And pity us for not having the balls to call it out.
Do it again, not good enough. I want 100% porosity free.

I assume you're not a welder. But your skills in welding, at the end of the day, are getting better... I might also summize you are probably sharping tungstens alot less of the time as well. Bonus. Called progress.
You're improving and welding more consistant. At holding a tighter arc length, consistantly heating and melting of the filler and plate while feeding the filler and maintaining a consistant speed of travel. Maybe your seeing more than a bright light and liquified metal? Good. Because there is more to see.

Step away from the material and think about the process.
Your porosity problem... it didn't go away with cleaning in my opinion. It may have reduced a risk however.
Although the cleaning did allow for a reduction in porosity producing contaminants from surfaces. I'm guessing it was reduced more by the improvement to hand skills through practice.

That filler, ER70S-2, look at the specs. Compare with ER70S-6. Difference is deoxidizers. ER70s-6 cleans more with those added deoxidizers. How and why is education. Read the forum, it free.
But on a simple level, If we forget the purpose of the deoxidizer, for simplicity, we are left with the difference between ice milk and ice cream.
If you look at the material comp, both have silicon. It's not your issue. It's the welding of them.
Friend, I'm not a hater. I'm hard love. I want you to find your answers, not just accept mine or their's.
So, neither the material or filler rod had porosity to begin with. Some how the application of heat and pressure created it. And while I could be greatly mistaken, you still have .1% porosity left behind and it's all good? Excuse me?
Let me rephrase, while you didn't have it when we started, your 99.9% cancer free now.
Go ahead, say all good?

Ok...that was harsh. How about this.  You are faced with a choice. How you choose will decide your future. Accept the status quo, or go back to the lab and practice.

CWE practice exam.
Welding Heat Sources and Arc Physics
21. Sketch plots for each of the following relationships and describe the characteristics of a typical welding arc.
a) Arc voltage versus current for at least three different arc lengths.
b) Arc voltage versus arc length for three different current levels.
c) Arc voltage versus position across the arc from the anode to the cathode.
d) Discuss how the voltage drops near the electrodes appears in each of the three above plots. Relate the electrode voltage drops to the distribution of heat in the arc and to the overall efficiency of the arc as a heat source for welding.

Read that question then answer me this. How much acetone work you have to buy to clean a run of 10,000 parts.

Spectrum disorders,  may not have been the best analogy. But it wasn't the worst either. And like Sheldon, I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
"But if you want to cure the porosity, and the welder isn't screwing it up, blame the consumable."
Well, somebody is to blame. Not me, I'm certified.
Yup...it's all good. 99.9% good.

Good luck in your endeavors.
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 01-08-2015 18:10 Edited 01-08-2015 18:13
Thanks guys.

Gas lines are good, no leaks, and cup is #6, 3/32 x 2% ceriated tungsten.

As for the bead blast, we had a discussion regarding this, and decided to do as you suggested, grind/sand the scale and clean with alcohol and eliminate the blasting.

And as for the filler, we typically use ER70s-6, only reason we're using -2 is per customer/drawing requirement??

A couple of other thoughts we had were,

1) the edge of the vertical member still had the sheared edge butted to the other pc., the sheared edge could have likely had contamination trapped which could have been drawn in somehow.
or
2) air was drawn in through the joint from the back side, there was no backup gas being used.

I suppose all these are possible, but depending on how this next try goes, we'll consider the latter.

Thanks again! I appreciate the help.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-08-2015 18:21
A good cleaning with the acetone should remove any greases or oil from the shearing operation if a lubricant was used.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 01-08-2015 19:28
When GMAW, I attribute fine weld interior porosity to the venturi effect.
This is caused by either turbulence in the shielding gas flow causing a venturi suction that pulls outside air into the plasma, due to excess shield gas cfh, or a spatter filled nozzle.
Or an excess travel angle, usually beyond 45 degrees, that again deposits air in the plasma due to venturi.
I realize you are using GTAW, but the same shielding gas flow principals apply.
So, a thing to check is gas cfh (needs to be below 45) and torch travel angle (not over 45 deg).

Tim
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 01-14-2015 19:54
Just wanted to follow up with an update,

We followed the advice on the cleaning process.

We eliminated the bead blasting, cleaned with alcohol and the porosity was 99.9% eliminated, well within spec.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice.

As always, it's much appreciated!!

On to the next challenge......:cool:
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-15-2015 01:09
That's good to hear. Thanks for the feed back.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Porosity, GTAW, A36/4140

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