Hello John, maybe slightly off-topic but really not. Why do we often see the included angle on structural CJP welds at 45 degrees? It's all about the time to complete the joint and not have excessive issues with slag-entrapment, lack-of-fusion, undercut, and other problematic issues. Process application can be considered in the same manner. You could say that GTAW all the way out on a pipe has the ability to provide for less issues of failure and rework when performed by a qualified welder. Yet, you'd go broke using that logic on about 95% of pipe work being done. OK, done with the side-track, but completely agree with the comments from your post. Have a great day and best regards, Allan

The only area of your concern that I don't adhere to Sourdough is blaming the AWS.  Now, if all you want is more action from them to try to get wages up to a reasonable rate for welders then I understand and yet that is not really their job.  All of these low wages are a result of a market that is not as short on wanna be welders as it is short on true craftsmen.

I believe AWS is doing a pretty fair job of improving the educational opportunities, available resources, and educator training in order to help those who desire good wages to improve themselves and be able to get good jobs.  But we have way too many shade tree welders who learned on their own and don't really understand the concepts and will jump at any opportunity to get a job that pays the bills.  (nothing against those who learn on their own and truly go for it and learn all they can, there are many of us in that boat.  I mean those who learn to pull the trigger and get a steady arc, but not bead, and then call themselves welders)

And, for the most part, you can't blame them.  They have families to feed just like we do.  BUT, as long as there are those out there, in all occupations/trades, who will take these cheap paying jobs then more and more employers are saying 'why should I pay more when I can get these guys'.  And, our market stays down and it will do so until the economy improves enough that there is a demand for quality instead of quantity, both in the employee and the product.

Welders, inspectors, educators, we are all seeing it.  Too many available with years of experience but no true skills.  And they are jumping at these jobs thus keeping the market down.  We are all frustrated with the results but you can't truly place blame on an organization whose mission is to advance the science and technology of welding, not, establish wages, benefits, and assure everyone who wants a job can have a job.

We must instill confidence in the people trying to get jobs in all trades so they don't have to and won't take these cheap jobs.  If no one took them, the employers would have to offer more money to get anyone. 

My purpose in responding was not to tell you that you are delusional.  It is also not to defend the AWS.  It is to broaden our view of what is happening and place the blame where it belongs, on those who take these jobs.  They are the ones we need to go to with compassion and facts and educate on why they can't make ends meet even though they are working their hearts out.  Without getting into a union vs non-union debate, it is a similar situation to what originally brought about our labor unions.  That is how wages and working conditions came to the forefront and got the needed attention and got legal support for improvement.  Unions helped bring us where we are but it will take education to keep us there.  And that is what AWS is heavily involved in.  Look to their involvement in Skills USA, Educator Institutes, Teaching materials, student chapters, and so much more. 

I can't remember your name at the moment so I'll just go with your handle here, Sourdough,(just looked it up, Hi Clay) I think our plight revolves around education, training, and early skills development.  When people have the confidence that they can get better jobs, they will hold out for more pay.  Or, at least only use these jobs as stepping stone in order to get some experience to add to the education already attained.  And we know how hard that can be.  We hear it all the time.  'I finished school but no one will hire me because I don't have any experience.  How can I get experience unless you hire me?'  Well, that's where these jobs come from.

But, even here in AZ, with a right to work state and other factors that cause a lot of low paying jobs to be prevalent, that is a starting point to see what a person can do and they go up from there.   Most make $15-25/ hour.  Some more.  And benefits.  Field work is more.  And we are not talking pipelines and other more skilled, higher paying areas of the trade.  We are talking non-union shops. 

But, as your main objective was to cast stones at the AWS, I disagree with the target while I agree strongly with the desired results. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent

Hahaha!! "must be able to speak Spanish"???

Not in this lifetime!! I might even know a little, but will never let on that I do

Delusional, no.
Administering truth, yes.

Bored, no.
Of adequate intelligence, yes.

Just wait until you have plenty of practical, hands on knowledge to post. The know it all blowhards here will disagree with all that you have to say, just so they can sit back in there chair and admire their 16 paragraphs of rebuttal.

After they do that to you, (and all the other regulars/real welders), you will understand why I come here to see if they are still plucking away on the keyboard, just to marvel at their own punctuation.

Besides, who are you to get all defensive......unless you aspire to be a good little welder boy under their thumb?

I would start at 90 to 93 amps on my Pipe Pro 304 with 200 ft of lead, most still wound up on the reels.
I've had an inspector say his clamp meter read a little higher than my machine meter showed.

Floyd

.