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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Carbon Equivalent Formulas for wrought iron/ early steel
- - By Aseraphin Date 02-04-2015 20:58
We are trying to determine if the joints in a 1874 truss are weldable. The testing lab has told us that they need to know which Carbon Equivalent Formula to use for their analysis. We assume that the trusses are wrought iron but they could be early steel. The lab asked us to provide formulas for each material. I've found formulas for cast iron and several for steel but nothing for wrought iron. Any advice or help on which formula to use for either wrought iron or early steel would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
Ari
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-05-2015 00:26 Edited 02-05-2015 00:42
A simple spark test should allow you to differentiate between steel and iron.
Past that, the only way to accurately do this is by removing a chunk and send it off for chemical analysis.
An Oxford Instrument? This one will NOT do what you need.
http://www.oxford-instruments.com/products/analysers/handheld-analysers/pmi-scrap-metal-handheld-xrf-x-met8000
Just to get someone 2 miles away with a simple hand held Oxford XRF devise was $300 the last time I called one in. It took 1 minute to turn it on, warm up and take the reading. It took 2 minutes to write the bill and me sign it.

Now this one will.
http://www.oxford-instruments.com/products/spectrometers/optical-emission-spectroscopy/pmi-master-pro
Last I checked a similar machine cost $35,000.
Unless some one in your area has a similar device, you'll have to send in a sample. To have some one deploy to your location is going to be VERY expensive even if they are located across town.
You have to have a chemical break down of all pertinent elements before you can start the number crunching for Carbon Eq.

The foto attached is one of the bases of arch span girders in the Frankfurt, Germany Rail Station. When I saw these, I wondered; HOW would one perform NDT to assure their integrity.
Attachment: UTThiscopy.JPG (137k)
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 02-06-2015 13:02
we  were working in a building built from 1897 till 1901. The campus was heated by a central steam plant and each building had a small mechanical room. All the hangers were built on a forge and were works of art. I had to do a tie in and the port a band went through the old pipe like butter. It was completely different than modern pipe and a delicate hand was needed to put in a root. Capped out nicely with 3/32  7018. Managed to get some the old hanger rod from change outs and you could bend 1/2 rod with ease compared to mid steel.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-05-2015 15:13
Ari,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

So, 'wrought' means 'to work'.  Until the mid to late 1800's it was used very commonly for lamp posts, axes, swords, rivets, trusses, handrails and decorative railings, and even warships, etc.  It was low carbon, malleable, and very easily welded.  More than likely this is what your 'trusses' are but you are correct, they 'could be' mild steel. 

Then, mild steel came on the scene.  This replaced much of the usage of wrought iron.  Leaving a term that has carried over into today which normally applies to railings (decorative or not) and other items that are not 'wrought'.

There is a big difference between cast iron and wrought iron.  Mainly, wrought is malleable and easily welded, not so cast iron.  And, a big difference between cast, wrought, and/or mild steel or structural iron. 

Breaking this brief info down to your query, a GUESS would lead to the conclusion that it would be weldable regardless of which material it is.  The question is, to what procedures?  Pre-heat, filler material, welding process, etc. 

I'm trying to figure out why a testing lab needs to know which Carbon Equivalent Formula to use?  They should be able to do a material analysis that would tell them what it is by carbon content as well as most other alloying agents added to the iron to make it what it is.  Carbon Equivalency is not as much for analyzing materials as determining other factors once you know what the material is.  Things like pre-heat in relation to HAZ control, hydrogen control, restraint issues, etc.  Seems like the issue is being evaluated backwards.  Find the material identification first, then determine which CE to use.  Not using the CE to find the material identification. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-06-2015 19:25
I had a similar situation a few years ago, the only way we could positively verify what we had so we could determine what filler wire to use was to remove a small section and send it to a lab where they did the "spark" test on it and gave me a nice printout of what the composition was and what filler metals to uise on it.  The piece we had to remove was around 3" wide by 6" long if I remember correctly.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-06-2015 21:31
eekpod,

Wish you'd have sent it to me. I give AWS Forum participants a substantial discount for a simple "Spark Test". Complete with a SWAG guestimate of carbon content...
- By 803056 (*****) Date 02-09-2015 20:48
The laboratory should provide you with the chemistry of the sample based on the test results of a spectral analysis that includes carbon, manganese, silicon, phosphorus, sulfur, chrome, nickel, molybdenum, etc.

Most PMI "guns" will not provide results for the lighter elements. Can you say, "carbon and sulfur?"

There are several carbon equivalencies. An engineer that is familiar with wrought steel and weldability issues should be involved to determine which one is best suited for the application.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Carbon Equivalent Formulas for wrought iron/ early steel

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