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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / wps for round bar
- - By jshot (*) Date 04-29-2015 21:39
Hi all, I just had a company ask if I had a wps for welding round bar end to end. Can someone give me some advice on how to proceed? One end is square and the other is beveled. Process is SMAW. How would this be qualified? Any discussion to start a conversation would be appreciated. The info I provided is all I have at this time.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-30-2015 11:22
Sure... Let's start the discussion here.

1.  Is the required joint CJP or PJP ?
Parent - By jshot (*) Date 04-30-2015 12:39
I'm assuming cjp.

I received this request yesterday and was only given little information in an email. The person said it is being field welded with SMAW. This company is a structural steel fabrication shop. Only info at this time is two rods welded end to end and their asking for wps assistance. I won't know further until I'm back from a job in a couple days. I wanted to have some info ready when I contact for more details. I've never had this request. Thanks for responding.
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 04-30-2015 12:23
what type metal?
you can qualify anything, but can you really weld it?
smaw on aluminum is a b*tch
that is the starting point
throw the metal out, and we talk
need more info to help
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 04-30-2015 13:14
I’ve never seen anything for an end to end (butt weld) for round bar such as you described.  There's a single bevel groove weld as you described, but it’s for a rebar butt joint for bars used in the vertical position.  The joint has a 1/8” gap.  One bar is beveled 45° and the other is square, and the joint is backgouged.       

You mentioned that you weren’t provided with a lot of information.  I’ve been in structural steel for going on 37 years and I’ve not heard of a direct butt splice for round bars in the shop or the field.  Is it possible that the question you were posed is in regard to rebar, which would be D1.4?
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 04-30-2015 13:55
Scott is correct
it is rebar
and do not weld it tie it
spend the extra $ on a little more rebar
but that is finance part speaking
thanks Scott for the advice, good man
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-02-2015 15:51
Is it possible to thread the round bar and use a coupling/turnbuckle, like rod X-bracing, vs welding and having to qualify a welder and a procedure?
just throwing this out for consideration.....
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 05-02-2015 17:10
John,
I go for that
but need EOR and building and planning to approve
or whoever is at the top of the chain
but sounds like a winner to me
lower cost and quicker work
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-03-2015 05:22
Bean counters...
The civil engineer could run the numbers and just toss in a few more sticks, or so it seems to me.

http://precast.org/2011/04/hot-topic-welding-reinforcement/

Rebar used in precast concrete products usually comply with either ASTM A615 / A615M-09, Standard Specification for Deformed and Plain Carbon-Steel Bars for Concrete Reinforcement, or ASTM A706 / A706M-09, Standard Specification for Low-Alloy Steel Deformed and Plain Bars for Concrete Reinforcement. And that takes us to our third and final standard from American Standards of Testing and Materials. The most common steel rebar we see in plants are manufactured in compliance with ASTM A615 / A615M.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 05-04-2015 06:00
Per ACI 318-11, chapter 12, Welds and mechanical splices of reinforcement shall develop, in tension or compression, 125% of the specified yield strength of the reinforcement.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-04-2015 20:42
wait...is this rebar splicing?...I was thinking the OP was asking about direct butt splicing plain ole round bar(A36 grade)
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-04-2015 21:46
Totally unknown here on the forum.  He may know by now but hasn't shared with us.  He has only called it round bar.

Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-30-2015 19:58
There are several questions to be answered before going too far. a couple of the important questions have already been asked, i.e. what code, and what material is being welded.

Generally speaking, one would qualify the WPS using a CJP plate assembly (the exception being rebar).

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jshot (*) Date 04-30-2015 21:56
So if for some reason it's not rebar and it's just round stock, a common plate to plate cjp wps in clause 3 should work? I find it odd to weld such a joint with stick if its like 3/8 or 1/2 dia bar. I hope to know more info as I have replied asking for more details. I was concerned with having to qualify. Not sure how to test a welded round rod. I welcome more discussion on this topic. Thanks all
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-01-2015 00:17
So, in order to get a picture here, why would one think this would be any different than welding two pieces of flat bar- square or rectangular, angle iron, or plate together?  Round bar.  So, just makes the welds get shorter with each layer filling up the groove. 

Any applicable Clause 3 bevel groove joint should do the trick.  Bevel from one side, weld about 3/4 of the way up, backgouge from the other side, weld all the way up, go back and finish the weld from the first side. 

Easy WPS to fill out once one knows all the rest of the criteria and is sure that material, welding process, and other variables qualify for a Pre-Approved WPS.  If not, then it will need a PQR first.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jshot (*) Date 05-05-2015 00:32
It is a elevator connection plate. Issue was brought up about threaded rod not projecting past the nut and if a piece could be welded on as an extension or to puddle weld the nut.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-05-2015 01:07
You've got to be kidding!

Their IQ is low enough to be considered mentally challenged and eligible for Social Security benefits!

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-05-2015 02:15
Now we have that answer, not round bar nor rebar.  Threaded rod.  Probably just standard grade for anchors?  Equivalent to a grade 2 approximately? 

Now, first off, I agree with Al.  Some one needs to go back to welding 101 not to mention the code books and other applicable references on welding to these.

Second, FYI, the rod does not have to project "past" the nut.  The code only requires even with the top of the nut.  Forget everything you have 'heard' about a couple of threads past the top of the nut.  Not what the code requires. 

So, my question, does it REALLY need to be lengthened? 

If so, call the engineer.  Get new parts or make an engineer approved modification. 

BUT, do not weld on this part in order to make it longer. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-05-2015 20:19
No argument with Brent's suggestions.

Al
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 05-05-2015 20:55 Edited 05-05-2015 21:56
Just a thought... The 2nd edition of the AISC Design Guide for Base Plate and Anchor Rod Design alludes to a partially engaged nut on an anchor rod provided that at least half the nut threads are engaged....    

2.11.3 Anchor Rod Projection Too Long or Too Short

Anchor rod projections that are too short or too long must be investigated to determine if the correct anchor rods were installed. If the anchor rod is too short, the anchor rod may be projecting below the foundation. If the rod projection is too long, the embedment may not be adequate to develop the required tensile strength. Often, when the anchor rod is short, it may be possible to partially engage the nut. A conservative estimate of the resulting nut strength can be made based on the percentage of threads engaged, as long as at least half of the threads in the nut are engaged. 

Edit... this would also need to be an RFI submittal.
- - By jshot (*) Date 05-05-2015 22:38
The field inspector is requesting that a WPS be created for welding a F1554  1 inch round threaded rod to another in order to gain the projection above the nut. It has already been put in place and a repair is needed to correct the insufficient projection due to one being 1/8th inch below flush. I'm being told that the inspector on the job is requesting a wps for the repair. An approved revision has been made.

1. WPS - Does anyone see a problem with using a CJP butt joint with single bevel with back gouging and include all the variables? Or is there further concern with this topic. I saw one of you said this would be a good start.

2. Being this is a subcontractor completing the field weld, is there any considerations to take?

3. Would any of you have an electrode option for completing this task (just asking due to the threaded nature)

As you can tell, I'm reaching out for your years of experience on this matter. I'm just hesitant on the threaded bar.

Thanks
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 05-06-2015 03:13
i would use a nelson stud.   went through this on a job where a detailing over site made several hundred hold downs 12" to short.   Stud welding products helped me develop a procedure to shoot a threaded stud on top of the existing studs and save the whole job
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-06-2015 03:24
Good point.  Great idea.  BUT, for only one it is probably not economically feasible to bring in a stud machine to shoot 1 1" threaded stud on top of the existing threaded anchor.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 05-06-2015 04:28
for one stud i would say its coupling nut time.
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 05-06-2015 11:26
jshot,

What grade is the F1554? I didn't see it mentioned.  There are three grades associated with this spec.... Grade 36, Grade 55, and Grade 105, but not all three grades are weldable.  F1554 Grade 36 is mild steel and is weldable.  Grade 55 is a modified mild steel and is weldable, provided it meets the weldability requirements as described in Supplementary Requirement S1 of the F1554 specification.  Grade 55 material that does not meet the S1 carbon equivalency parameters is not weldable. Grade 105 is not weldable since the heat generated during welding could alter the mechanical properties of the medium carbon alloy quenched and tempered material.
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 05-13-2015 17:47
I am going to say what I think
this is fubar
start over
if it was my job what I would do
this is so wrong
and do not even what this for
a bridge, high rise, mall,etc, etc, etc
this has so much liability to it
just imho
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By satsuresh kumar Date 07-23-2016 08:42
WHAT  I AM FEELING IS  JOINING ROUND BARS  DIRECTLY BY WELDING WITH BUTT JOINT  IS  NOT A GOOD INDUSTRIAL PRACTICE.

THE REASONS IS  WE MAY NOT ENSURE THE  THE INTEGRITY OF THAT EXACTLY  (IF DIA IS LESS THAN 50MM)

MAKING WPS  AND GETTING QUALIFIED  IS BIG TASK  FOR GETTING  SO CALLED CJP.

BETTER  GO FOR   PJP  OF THE ROUND BAR  , FLUSH IT  , PUT SLEEVE  AND DO FILLET WELD  TO ROUND BAR.
IT MAY TAKE  LOADS AS PER ROUND BAR  STRENGTH.

HOPE IT MAY USEFUL TO ANY FABRICATION  INDUSTRIES.
Attachment: RBJOINT.png (750k)
Parent - By samson thomas Date 01-21-2017 11:40
The key document is the Welding Procedure Specification (WPS) which details the welding variables to be used to ensure a welded joint will achieve the specified levels of weld quality and mechanical properties.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / wps for round bar

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