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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Construction aids on b31.3 piping
- - By blindeman Date 05-01-2015 15:58
Are construction aids (temporary braces to hold a spool square, extensions to hold spool on jackstands) allowed in b31.3? I cant seem to find anything saying no, but my gut is telling me to reject it.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 05-01-2015 17:07
Why?
BTW Welcome to the forum!:lol:
Parent - - By blindeman Date 05-01-2015 17:30
Large 10" spool with multiple tees and elbows pulled down to perform revisions. Contractor welded 2" diameter pipe in a couple places to hold spool in jackstands in order to hold it plumb and level for revision work.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 05-01-2015 17:39
Hello blindeman, I am not an expert in B31.3 piping by any means so take this for what it's worth. If "arc strikes" are a no no in this application then I would be very leary of items being " welded to " the spool. They will obviously remove these upon completion but can you judge whether there has been any detrimental results from these "temporaries" when this is done. That would be my only concern, but as I said, I am not an expert in B31.3. I am sure that others can more thoroughly address your question and will await their replies. Good luck and best regards, Allan
Parent - By WeldinFool (**) Date 05-01-2015 18:12
I am not an expert on ASME B31.3 either, but worked as a pipe-welder for almost 30 years with most of the work being performed to that standard. I can tell you that in pipe fabrication shops where 99% of the spools are welded using a positioner to rotate the pipe, it is common practice to place tack-welds between the piping and the jaws of the positioner (to keep it from falling on your toes!), these are then removed and the area is blended smooth. These shops (at least the ones I worked in) were very aware of the code requirements and would not have permitted this to be done if it was forbidden by the standard.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-04-2015 19:48
There is nothing wrong with the practice as long as you use compatible materials.
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 06-02-2015 04:24
When the temp weld attachment removed and ground to bright metal, liquid penetrant or magnetic particle tests should be performed to check for surface defects. The rejection comes when there is over grinding made on the base metal surface, or the deep nothes or scored marks are not repaired.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 05-02-2015 00:35
Hi blindeman!

As you can see from the posts, quality construction aids are quite acceptable under most codes. Watch out for remove tactics, ie scars etc but dont stess too much!
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-20-2015 11:47
Still in process of catching up after a long absence, so forgive the late entry.

This is an important subject that usually isn't addressed by most codes. First I will say it would be extremely difficult to complete a project without use of construction aids. The project I have been on the last 7.5 years has the codes of record predating many current codes. Some of those codes were removed all together, while some rolled into others. Pressure piping code is an example of that.
For example, it started life with 73 B31.1, there is B31.5, and others from that era invoked as well. On the structural side it started life predating D1.1 by using D1.0 which predates D1.1 and D1.5 as both of those were initially covered under D1.0.

While it's been a struggle, it has given me an insight regarding the intents that are assumed in latter code years. One of those things being the integrity of the pressure boundary. If your welding a construction aid to the pressure boundary, that union should be addressed as if it is part of that boundary. Between heat, materials, exams, et cetera, you can't go wrong utilizing the OCR when dealing with it at the boundaries. Where exceptions are typically made, are when it comes to volumetric exams. It's going to be cut off, so not a lot of point to the volumetric. A surface exam (if required by the code of record) of the removal area is another story as it will become part of the permanent boundary. It is in those removal areas that you can be in jeapordy. At a minimum, you have a HAZ area that would have otherwise not been at that particular area of the boundary. That also includes WPS, welder certs, and all that is entailed in the welding program.

Rejecting temporary aids out of hand is an extreme view. One I suspect would not be supported in contracts.

That gets to another point. I've been reviewing the FEED docs for my next one, and found this not addressed at all among other things. So if a third party representing a government or other interest were to ask, there would be no defense. Imposing a weld/examination requirement post contract would delay the schedule and impact the constructor. Back charges would be flying left and right, and any LD charges would be rightfully challenged.

Yet not addressing a temporary attachment area that could subsequently become a failure point is not wise. Imagine a spool piece blowing out at or near that point five years down the road.  The pipe manufacturer will usually have their ducks in a row, as will the constructor. That leaves the owner high and dry as they failed to address it.

Summing that up, the temporary construction aids are vital to the timely delivery of a project. The real problem comes when it's not addressed on the front end.

My opinion for what it's worth.
- By 803056 (*****) Date 05-01-2015 18:39
It is my personal opinion that if the code does not contain specific prohibitions, the practice of temporary attachments are permissible provided they are welded in accordance with the appropriate WPS. I would expect the contractor's WPS or QC manual to address the issues with provisions for the deposition of the welds securing the attachments and the removal of the attachments. Like anything in this world, there are contractors that would have given the issue some though and addressed the concerns in detail. Other contractor with less experience, less expertise, no so much.

As an inspector, your actions should be supported by the applicable code rather than your personal opinion. If you can't not hang your hat on a specific code provision, don't get involved unless there is an obvious problem, i.e., arc strikes, undercut, sharp notches, etc. Even then, you should be able to cite a specific code provision as the basis of your actions.

That doesn't mean you can't have an off the record conversation with the contractor to let your concerns be known.

Best regards - Al
- - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-01-2015 22:59
Now, I'm going to take a moment and make a clarification:  There is a HUGE difference between arc strikes and a weld properly made to attach fitters aids, safety attachments, or any other items deemed necessary by the contractor.  As an inspector hopefully you are still AWS active and noticed an article a short time back on 'Protected Zones'.  The same principles apply.  There are very few places you can not put a proper weld and then remove it later. 

But, rely heavily on your applicable code and Job Specifications especially as to your responsibilities as a TPI. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent

OOPPSS: WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-01-2015 23:09
Hello Brent, "arc strikes and a weld properly made to attach fitters aids", that's where I was essentially going with my comment. I believe that is also where Al was at with his comments regarding having the proper WPS etc. covering how these items are to be included/utilized in this case. Willy-nilly attachments could cause more harm than good in some instances and I hope that isn't the case here. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-17-2015 23:06
As a Member of the ASME B31.3 Committee (but NOT speaking on behalf of committee, just my OWN opinion) I know of nothing to prohibit the use of "construction aids" to assist in fabrication, as many others have pointed out compatible materials, qualified WPS and qualified welders ARE required however.

As an "old timer" once upon a time wedges and dogs were very common in assisting fit-up.  I realise there are loads of modern tools available to displace these old time methods but used properly there's nothing wrong with some old time methodology.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-18-2015 14:13
Your absence has left quite a hole around here Jon.  Welcome to the discussion.

Praying all is continuing on an upward path for you.  Appears things are advancing medically? 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-19-2015 01:59
Welcome back Jon!

Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-21-2015 07:44
Hey Jon!

Like me, you're still hanging in here eh? It's good to see you posting again! yeah, and please don't be a stranger even though I do understand that there are days so bad that getting out of bed are hard enough on both of us... Still, it's really good to see you posting in here again.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-21-2015 12:02
Henry, Happy Memorial Day to you and the rest of our veterans.

How are you doing on reaching your goal to pay for your operation?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-24-2015 22:39
Thanks for the very kind words gents.  Things are progressing well medically, I've recently come off of intravenous chemotherapy.  That was a bit of a mixed message because the reason they took me off was the effect the chemo was having on my motor skills (fumble fingers, etc.,) but the results are surely good, my cancer "marker" numbers are down 93% from the beginning of treatment.  Positive attitude, loads of friends supporting me, the worlds best wife and being on countless prayer chains around the world has also helped! :grin:
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-25-2015 02:31
Great news! God bless you!

Great weekend!. My nephew got married in my parents back pasture. There were nearly 200 family members; brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, nephews, nieces, grandchildren ...... Yup, we have a big family and it is still growing.

Happy Memorial Day everyone.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-28-2015 18:59
Hi Al!

Thank you for those kind words, but the veterans that didn't make it back home is who we honor with Memorial Day and are our true heroes...

To answer your question with a word or two is: Good, but could also be better... As far as an operation is concerned - the doctors @ the Comprehensive Lung Center for The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center have drained my pleural effusions (I have more than one now) a total of three times along with 3 biopsies so far and yet there's still more draining to do... I'm actually getting used to this procedure that I don't twitch anymore once the huge needle is inserted from my back, and the pain is no longer as intense as it was the first time once the local anesthesia wore off... My apologies to the original poster and anyone else for getting off track a bit and will end really soon...:roll:

My biggest problem is not being able to do any sustained physical exertion whatsoever!!! Even getting out of bed takes my breath away forcing me to sit at the edge of the bed with my pulse-oximeter until blood/oxygen saturation level rises back to at least 90 lpm's from 82 to 85 lpm's before I can consider to get up and either go to the bathroom or the kitchen and once I'm there I have to rest again!

In a matter of less that 2 minutes my blood/oxygen level drops like a rock after minimal physical exertion and it's becoming very frustrating... The only silver lining is the fact that it's a temporary condition that is the result of going through each of the procedures... The other problem I'm having is the chronic swelling of my lower extremities like my legs, thighs knees and toes...

The donations have helped tremendously and there's just no way that I can truly express how grateful I am to everyone who has helped me with their donations so that I could afford to pay the Hospital co-payments, procedure co-payments, diagnostic tests and drug co-payments, and I know that had I not been able to have these procedures and everything else that comes with this,. I don't think that I would be sitting here in front of my monitor typing this to you or anyone else... And if I even lasted this long, i would probably still be in ICU on a ventolator down my throat, tubes in me and in way-way worse condition than where I am today!
So thanks again Al and the rest of my friends in here... I'll PM you later tonight Al because I have to get off my feet to prevent any further swelling.:grin::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-28-2015 19:26
Don't go out of your way to respond. I really do have a feel for what you are going through. I've been fortunate, but I have two sisters that are breast cancer survivors, but one now has cancer in her liver, lungs, brain and bones. She is recuperating from her third neurosurgery as I type. So, my friend, take it easy and get well.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-03-2015 13:40
It's good to hear positive things are happening! Get Well soon buddy
- By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-28-2015 23:02
Sometimes, some of us forget how truly blessed we are and at the same time, how fragile life is and how easy it could be one of us.

Thanks for the update Henry.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Construction aids on b31.3 piping

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