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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Need help in proper way to qualify a welder
- - By jpm33 Date 03-04-2016 14:52
I obtained my CWI/CWE about a year ago and haven't qualified anyone due to ignorance. I'm a welding instructor and a member of my advisory board wants me to qualify a welder that works for him. In the past year I have turned everyone that asked down because I didn't want to do this wrong. I teach guided bend tests to my students to the D1.1 standard, but I haven't done any paper work to qualify a welder.

So...

1.) When i downloaded the PQR, WPS, and WPQTR forms off of the aws.org website they all say "SAMPLE" at the top. I called the certification department and asked if these are the correct forms to use. They told me they would email me an answer, so are these the correct forms and if they are not do I need to purchase them? I see the sample forms in Annex N, but I assume there must be a digital copy somewhere to fill in the values.

I have a lot of confusion on the process of qualification....

2.) If I run a prequalified joint from clause 3 do I still need to fill out a PQR form?
3.) Does prequalified only work on joints that are PJP? I was under the assumption you have to go to clause 4 for CJP.
4.) I understand that the employer needs to have his own WPS's, do I fill those out for them as I administer the test? This employer doesn't know what that is; although, all his welders have WPQTR's and he says all his welders are "certified" under the previous CWI (this doesn't sound right).
5.) After the completion of the test and forms are filled out do I send them to the aws? If so, where? Or do I simply keep them for my own records?
6.) If not running a prequalified joint, when I qualify the procedure do I send the tensile pull into a 3rd party lab or can I pull the tensile myself and record the values?

Obviously, there is a lot of ignorance here and any help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated as I don't have very many people to ask these type of questions to. If I can't learn how to do this the right way I won't be doing this at all and I really would like to learn how to qualify a welder.

JPM
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-04-2016 15:12
Hi JPM,
1) Those are sample forms, and you may tailor them to suit the testing that you are performing.(take off things that do not apply..etc)

2) No, a prequalified joint does not require tested by running a PQR

3) A prequalified joint can be a fillet, PJP, or CJP that fits within the variables listed in Clause 3

4) Welders that have been tested by the employer(previous CWI) are still valid as long as they are still performing welds that are acceptable and haven't let the 6 month period of effectiveness lapse.(continuously welding)

5) File your test records for review by anyone authorized to review them.(auditors will want to see them, and these will need to be submitted for approval by the engineer of record when a job is awarded)

6)If you have the equipment, you can perform the mechanical testing and record the results.
Parent - By jpm33 Date 03-04-2016 15:51
Thanks, you answered what I needed to know. I really do appreciate your time and such a quality response.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-04-2016 15:17
In the most respectful tone; you aren't ready.

Congrats on earning your CWI !

I suggest contacting your local AWS section and start going to meetings in search of an experienced CWI or engineer who can walk you through all this.  Get them on your school advisory committee.   They might even do this initial cert project for you in trade for access to your school shop.

You would do best with somebody sitting right next to you with that code book, unpacking all your questions... Your posted questions above tell me you need more guidance than a few posts on a forum will supply (respectfully).  But you are doing an excellent thing in asking for help, rather then trying to "cowboy" your project.

But don't go away or be discouraged!    You will meet here some of the very best experts who can answer almost any question.
Parent - By jpm33 Date 03-04-2016 15:49
I agree with you about not being ready and no disrespect taken... I do go to the section meetings when I can make it, but my school is (for lack of a better term) in the middle of no where and it's hard to get someone to commute to our location. I contacted the chair of our section last night with a few of these same questions. I appreciate your response (I assumed someone would say what you said, but a lot more harsh).
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 03-05-2016 03:29
I think most of your questions have been answered but I would like to throw in a few comments.

1) The format of the form is irrelevant. The content of Table 4.12 must be addressed and recorded. (Process, F-Number, Position, Diameter, Thickness, Vertical Progression and Backing. The digital form in fillable PDF is at https://app.aws.org/technical/forms/N-4.pdf
2) As indicated, you must use the joints as shown in clause form. A prequalified joint design exists in clause 3 that will match the details of the required joint designs in clause 4.
3) There are prequalified partial and complete joint penetration joints however there are no PJP joints for welder qualification.
4) The employer should have their own WPS's and of course you can prepare them for them however they need to have signature authorization somewhere on the form. I try to stress to organizations who are wanting their welders "certified" that there is more to code compliance than just that and having a certified welder will typically not release them from the responsibility of their work and though they may be able to show intent of compliance by certification of the welders, there is usually a great deal many more requirements within the code .
5) Submittal to AWS is only a requirement for an AWS Accredited test facility.
6) If you have the equipment to pull tensiles, you can pull them but don't forget the need for NDE prior to bends/tensiles.

If you are near NE Tennessee, I am planning a series of inspector training sessions this summer and welder testing and certification will be one of the modules (6-8 hours tentatively).

I apologize for duplicating any other responses. Just remember that welder testing is only a small part of code compliance and producing quality welds.

Have a good day

Gerald Austin
Parent - - By jpm33 Date 03-08-2016 20:33
Hi Gerald, I didn't notice your response when previously reading all the responses. Thank you for your info and for you taking the time. Between you, John Wright and Al this has been a huge help...I am curious when the courses are scheduled that you will be teaching and what the dates are. My personal email is welding2fast@yahoo.com...I live in Kansas and I love Tennessee (I would make the trip if my schedule allows it). Once again thank you.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 03-08-2016 20:59
I will send you an email. I am trying to get enough people interested and hopefully get something going over the summer.

Thanks for the comment. There are some tremendous resources on this forum. You should try a search and check out the responses. There are many with incredible knowledge and experience that have left the forum and sadly some have left this earth.

Have a great day.

Gerald
Parent - By jpm33 Date 03-08-2016 21:27
I agree about this being a tremendous resource....before I posted I was reading random posts that interested me and I learned a lot...especially from Al. I don't know who he is, but he is a WEALTH of knowledge. I appreciate all you guys that helped me out!
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-04-2016 15:31
Remember, the contractor certifies the employee.

Al
Parent - - By jpm33 Date 03-04-2016 15:50
Thank you, I have read a lot of your responses on other threads and they are always quality. I appreciate your time.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-04-2016 16:34
To expand on what has already been said by others:

1) use a sample form out of D1.1 or other code, but make your own form using MS Word or MS Excel. I have added information for my purposes.

2) if you are testing to D1.1, remember the arrangement of the test assemblies shown in clause 4 are mandatory. The joint details are restricted to the exact details depicted in clause 4. DO NOT USE the prequalified joint details in clause 3.

3) sign the test form as the test witness and as the individual that conducted the visual, guided bend tests, etc. Do not sign the certifying statement, leave that to the employer. I modify the form to include a line Test Witness just above the certification statement.

4) I have added a box for the welder's photograph for positive identification.

5) develop a prequalified WPS specifically for welder qualification that includes a sketch of the joint detail the welder is to use.

6) develop a set of test rules the welder must follow, i.e. hand tools only for interpass cleaning, welder must weld with one hand tied behind his back, welder must wear open toed sandal while welding, no gloves permitted, etc. The rules should include a statement that the inspector's decisions are final and not open to negotiation. Make it clear the welder is responsible for his own PPE and all interpass cleaning is performed in the test position.

7) develop a listing of the acceptance criteria you will be using to assess the welder's coupon.

8) provide the welder with items 5, 6, and 7 at the time of the test, have him read them and sign and date them before beginning the test.

9) generally, no coaching is permitted during the test. If the welder needs to practice, he's not ready for the test. Practice is practice, testing is testing.

10) I check the root pass before allowing the welder to proceed. While this may or may not be required, I'm signing the test report, so the welder follows my rules. This is not open to negotiation.  

11) The final inspection is performed after the welder announces he is done. I do not check the weld visual and tell the welder he needs another pass to fill the groove. It is his test coupon, I'm not his coach.

12) visually examine the completed weld. It either is accepted or rejected. If it passes, it moves on to guided bent testing or RT, not both, either one or the other.

13) make sure you use the proper bend diameter and fixture if you use the guided bend test. It is all too often that I see the "lab" use the incorrect bend diameter based on the strength and thickness of the test coupon.

14) there is no standard AWS test in D1.1 that includes a back gouge operation.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jpm33 Date 03-04-2016 17:22
Al, I really appreciate the time you took to write me that response. That is such valuable information to me (I have copied and pasted for my own education). I read a lot of your comments yesterday evening...I have learned a lot from you in the last 15 hours. I am truly grateful there is individuals like you that are willing to share this info. Thank you very much...I hope you have a wonderful day, Sir.
Parent - By Stoney (*) Date 03-04-2016 23:10
That's Al...a FOUNTAIN of help and support!
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-05-2016 04:42
That's why we're here.

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-05-2016 04:49
Not me, I'm here for all the free food...?? :confused:
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-05-2016 04:52
If that was the case, we'd both be skinny!

Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-05-2016 23:49
Man, no wonder I've been losing so many pounds.  Almost back down to my goal weight.  Put on a few while we were in the trailer remodeling the new homestead.  Had 15 to lose, down almost 10 of those.  And all thanks to all that free food you guys have been sending my way.

PS. A bit slower than it used to be, but still the only place to come and get good info based upon scientific facts and accurate code interpretations instead of touchy feely opinions that rate lower than arm pits.

BB
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Need help in proper way to qualify a welder

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