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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Word Games
- - By HJLBX Date 06-20-2016 06:00 Edited 06-20-2016 06:24
I know the questions below have been discussed on this forum before, but I am going to cover them again -- with AWS' perspective.

3.4  A welder has been qualified for groove welding using a 2 in schedule 80 pipe test coupon in the 2G position.
       Is the welder qualified qualified for the welding of schedule 80 4 inch pipe ?

A.  Yes
B.  No
C.  Yes, but not in the 5G and 6G position

The correct answer is C.  Simple enough - look up the diameter permitted by qualifying on 2 in schedule 80 pipe from the table in the 2015 Book of Specifications + per the 2015 Book of Specifications the welder is qualified to weld in both the 1G and 2G positions by qualifying on a 2G test.

* * * * *

3.5  For the qualification of the question 3.4 above, could electrodes of classification E7028 be used if the pipe conformed to API 5L Gr. X52 ?

A.  Yes
B.  No
C.  Yes, but not in the 5G and 6G position

The correct answer is C.

But you exasperatedly state:  "An electrode classified for the 2 position - flat position only for groove welds - cannot be used during a 2G qualification test !!

Well, my friend, read on...

* * * * *

Here is where the "word games" begin.  In a class of 18 students, all 18 failed this question - and it caused a whole bunch of frustration.

What does the wording "For the qualification of the question 3.4 above" actually refer to - the use of E7028 electrodes during the welder's qualification test itself or the welder's qualification ?

Per AWS, what "For the qualification of the question 3.4 above" is asking is "Is the welder qualified to use an E7028 electrode during production welding and can an E7028 electrode be used to weld API 5L Gr. X52 pipe ?"  The wording refers to welder's qualification - and not the welder's actual performance qualification test.

And if you look in the base metal-filler metal specification in the 2015 Book of Specifications -- E7028 electrodes are permitted with API 5L Gr. X52 pipe.

Everyone in a class of 18 argued that it referred to the actual qualification test itself.  18 out of 18 stated question 3.5 - as phrased - was asking "can E7028 electrodes be used by the welder during his 2G qualification test ?"

"Not so... according to AWS -- the welder is already qualified in question 3.4.  The wording of "For the qualification of the question 3.4 above" refers to the question "Is the welder qualified for the welding of schedule 80 4 in pipe [not during the actual qualification test but during production welding] ?"  When taking the exam, you have to pay attention to the wording - including tense of words.  Question 3.5 asks "could E7028 electrodes be used [by the qualified welder]" and not "could E7028 electrodes have been used [to qualify]."

You decide for yourself.

Instead of simply asking "Can the welder use E7028 electrodes in production welding" or "Is the welder qualified to use E7028 electrodes," it is "word games."

If the above question is truly reflective the actual CWI exam questions, then it is no wonder that the pass rate is dismal...
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-20-2016 10:48
Good greif...is this for real? Has the CWI exam really come to this?
So it really isn't about whether a person taking the test can decipher the code and apply it.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-20-2016 15:13 Edited 06-20-2016 20:02
I believe the post is with regards to the in-class practice quizzes. And yes, the wording is intended to force the student/attendee to read exactly what is written. It is called English comprehension. The job functions performed by CWI include reading legal documents, i.e., the codes, specification, etc. where every word and each sentence has specific meanings. Casual grammar skills do not cut it in the world where CWIs functions.

Al
Parent - - By HJLBX Date 06-20-2016 19:55
I get that the CWI exam requires the test taker to carefully read each question - that is a given.

However, questions that are written in such a manner to be open to multiple interpretations of what is really being asked - under the stress of a timed test - well that can be viewed a couple of different ways.  Test takers can't answer a question correctly if they don't understand what the question is asking - not because they do not know the material - but because the question is written in such a way that it can answered in different ways.  There is a difference between the two.

For example, how many gallons of paint will cover a 10 x 10 room ?  Now most people would know to include the ceiling area in the calculation - but if the question does not clearly state that the ceiling is to be excluded, then one will likely answer the question incorrectly.

LOL... I remember back in the 1980s the College Board (SAT) and ACT were sued for this very sort of thing.

Either AWS is doing it deliberately to de-rail test takers or it is just poorly written questions.  Either one wouldn't surprise me.  Sometimes I think it is just a case of poorly written questions - after all, using the various codes as a basis of AWS' writing, there are more than a few sub-clauses that are poorly phrased\written.

I have a gut feeling that the CWI exam is along the lines of ASNT exams - of which I have taken more than a few.  ASNT has a penchant for giving 5 answers to a multiple choice question that are so similar, that in the end, it really does come down to a guess.  What I have noticed about AWS, is that it has a penchant for giving extraneous information that is not needed to answer questions and\or presenting the answers in a way that is not straight-forward - on top of questions written in a manner open to multiple interpretations.

At least with ASNT one can prepare using their practice exams - which are truly reflective of the full range of question types and level of difficulty -- including the "word games" - but ASNT doesn't over do it to the extent that most people will fail the exams. My experience with ASNT has been much better than my experience with AWS.  No comparison - night/day.  The professional engineer's exam - there are countless sources of practice exams that are truly indicative of what is on the exam.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-20-2016 20:40
You did not respond to my statement that your concerns are primarily regarding the practice questions, not the actual test. Considering you only offered three responses to the question, it is probable you were attempting to recollect a test question that gave you some angst.

If my memory serves me; the committee throws out any test question that has a rating of less than 70% correct responses. That doesn’t mean 70% of the people pass the examination, it just means 70% of the people answer that one question correctly. Correct and incorrect responses are tabulate for every question on each examination. The question is reviewed by the committee to determine if the question is deficient when too many people respond incorrectly. Each question included on the CWI examination is reviewed by a committee of several individuals that try to exclude any question that is technically incorrect or ambiguous. 

Many of the questions not used on the CWI examination are passed on to the education committee for practice.

As for questions offering more information than is needed to answer the question, absolutely. It is expected the candidate knows what information is needed to respond correctly. That is something each of us has to do every day; wade through and filter out the “noise” so a solution to the problem can be found.  

Nearly 30,000 plus people have passed the CWI. I’m sure it is a blow to one’s ego not to pass the test, but that doesn’t mean the test isn’t accomplishing what it is designed to do. 

Al
Parent - - By HJLBX Date 06-20-2016 21:25 Edited 06-20-2016 21:47
LOL... no it is not an ego thing.  I haven't failed the test because I haven't taken it yet.

And if I pass the exam - that's great.  If I fail it - well then - I will survive re-take it another day.  I haven't failed any certification exams yet - but as all things in life - there is a first time for everything.  A good attitude about that possibility is important.

Preparing for certification exams - in my experience - is just as much an exercise in frustration management as it is about learning the material.  The only way to minimize the frustration is to begin preparing far in advance.

I have carefully followed both your and Brent's advice regarding preparation for the test.  By the time I take the test - in either Sept or Dec - I will have 10 to 12 months of self-study and online preparation.  I have already taken a few classes and will attend the Seminar Week in Sept.  The quality of training materials - and especially test guidance is deficient - but I have reached the conclusion that this is just how it is when it comes to both AWS and 3rd party CWI training courses.

I am just trying to get a "feel" for what is on the exam.  Different people and online sources say different things about the actual exam questions.

In the engineering field, one studies the theory and code.  The engineering exams do not use "word games" to make questions or answers vague, but instead focus on what the test taker knows.  The questions and answers are clear, specific, to the point and measure the test taker's mastery of the full range of technical areas - mathematical, scientific, engineering as well as the applicable codes.  Extraneous information is included, but not in such a manner as to "jam" the test taker up.  Many - like hundreds - practice exams that include actual exam questions from prior years are available for student learning.

On the engineering exams there are hypothetical cases, but if you know the code = prepared yourself by using one of the many available 1000+ question test banks covering each code, then you have learned enough about how the questions are asked and the type of hypothetical engineering cases to pass the exam.

I understand people's complaints.  At the same time, I also know that many complaints about exam failures are unfounded.  The test taker did not adequately prepare themselves - studied 2 months - and failed the exam.  This a big one where engineers are concerned.  "Oh, I'm an engineer - I will pass - I've been using the code for 6 years..."  I can tell you most specifying engineers do not know the various codes adequately - even after 10 years - or more - of professional practice. I have also seen guys who passed all of Real Education's practice exams with scores in the 90 %s - and still fail the actual CWI exam.

So I am just trying to figure out what gives... trying to make heads-and-tails of it...
Parent - - By TheNumber8 (*) Date 06-23-2016 17:11
HJLBX,

I figured I would throw in my two cents here as I own and operate one of these "deficient third party CWI preparatory courses."  ;)

First off, this forum is a very good source of information with a wide array of people who are willing to give all they can to help newcomers in this outstanding career field. I am sure you have found many people very helpful that have offered different points of view which will guide you to success.  Being an instructor and familiar with typical CWI curriculum, the testing battery and the world of ASNT, I notice a lot of common trends with students and I will explain a few here:

1) I have witnessed many students who rely on practice questions thinking that this is the key to passing the exams.  Although they do help, that's not what real leaning is about.  The key is to understand the material, understand what a question is asking, and answering the question based on your actual knowledge  I had a student who recently took a VT Level III Examination and bombed the NDT Basic exam because he simply relied on memorizing the practice questions and answers--even after he was warned not to do this.

2) Due to the lack of real experience with visual and dimensional inspection, some students fail a practical exam and often blame the practice pieces and how they didn't "look" exactly like the ones on the test.  I'm sorry to say, but once a person is certified to inspect, they are expected to conduct inspections on all sorts of material, welds and configurations. For example,  as-welded undercut generally appears the same on plate or pipe whether they are plastic replicas or metallic specimens. A true inspector should be able evaluate and ignore these insignificant differences without fail.

3) In the world of interpreting specifications, most people who fail either didn't know where to find the information in the book because they were not prepared, or they failed to read everything (including applicable notes) which altered the situation, or they "thought" they had a criteria memorized but got it mixed up with a different specification and answered the question blindly. The key to doing well on a spec exam (and in real life inspection) is actually quite simple:

a) Understand the situation/question
b) Locate the criteria
c) Interpret the criteria
d) Evaluate the condition to the criteria

V/r
David A. Perkins
NAVSEA 271 Level III Examiner/AWS SCWI
Absolute Precision Nondestructive Examination Services, LLC
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-23-2016 23:53
Very good and true points...David. 

Brent
Parent - By TheNumber8 (*) Date 06-24-2016 02:32
Thank you Brother
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-20-2016 21:07
I have taken the complete exam (All three parts) three times.

Each time I was troubled by some of the questions and even contested a few. In one case after I contested a question, I went to my car, thought about it, went back to the code, and realized I was wrong to contest it. The test graders probably got tired of reading my stuff. They didn't fail me though, passed all three times.

I think the test is challenging and a great indicator of ones comprehension (or memory from the seminar the week before) of the subject matter.

To me, any extra information is irrelevant when I really know the question and correct answer.  Many of our radiation worker/Control Point/Radcon monitor tests when I was in the Navy were full of extra info.
Parent - - By HJLBX Date 06-20-2016 23:29
LOL... on Part B I can envision a very easy trick question pertaining to 2016 Book of Specifications, Table 4 - Maximum Dimensions of Undercutting (EU or IU), p. 12.

"> 1/64 inch but ≤ 1/32 inch or > 6% but ≤ 12.5% of pipe wall thickness, whichever is smaller"

For wall thickness (t), 0.25 inch ≤  t < 0.260417 inch, you have to use 6% of the wall thickness for the minimum and 1/32 inch for the maximum permissible EU or IU.

* * * * *

If a test taker doesn't sort out all of the unacceptable discontinuities per wall thickness ranges in Pipeline and Pressure Piping before the exam - it can lead to needlessly missed questions.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-20-2016 23:59
During the question review process, I would imagine that values used during the test would be those that would not add undue complexity to the question but who knows.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-21-2016 12:58 Edited 06-21-2016 13:04
My experience has been that people don't read the question, instead they read what they want it to say. The second problem is failing to read all the response, instead they select the first answer that looks good. One must remember to select the best answer. If one response is correct under certain circumstances, but the next response is correct all the time, the latter is usually the better answer.

Then there are the people that answer every question in succession even if it takes 10 minutes to determine the answer. Silly goof, answer all the easy questions first, skip the difficult or time consuming questions, get to the last question and then circle back to answer the questions skipped. Never leave a blank, it is a wrong response, take a chance by elimination those two or three responses that are clearly incorrect and flip a coin on the two responses left. Placing a "T" or "F" beside each response is a good means of elimination incorrect detractors. It forces one to consider each response. A "good chance" is better than "no chance".

When skipping a question, place a tick mark beside that question on the answer sheet so your place isn't lost and all the questions are answered, but off by one line. Ooops!

Questions are usually derived from the "Welding Handbooks". The WIT text summarizes the Handbooks, so, use the WIT to see what subjects are covered, but study the "Welding Handbooks" for the details. Always use the latest editions. Years ago, before there was a WIT textbook, that was the direction one received, "Study the Handbooks". It still holds true.

Good luck, study, study, and pass those examinations.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-21-2016 22:30
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Parent - - By In Tension (**) Date 06-22-2016 17:43
To study the Welding Handbooks is very good advice and is always my first suggestion to a prospective CWI.  If somebody genuinely has the requisite experience and can digest Volumes 1 & 2 + selected Codebook, he/she should be well prepared to sit for the exam, word games or not.  I play more puzzling games at work everyday than I've seen on a CWI exam. 
HJLBX, there are mistakes in the study material but expect the exam questions to be well-vetted... yes, some are tricky but judging by your ability to pick out the errors in the study material I think you'll do fine.  After all, you're going through the same analytic process in picking out the study material findings as you will be in selecting the right answers on exam day.
Overall, I think AWS does a pretty fair job administering the exam.  Especially compared to other certification bodies.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-22-2016 22:30
Agreed
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- - By mwmw (**) Date 06-22-2016 03:06
Well the new Part B was meant to induce more Cognitive thinking during the exam. I do remember that question in the9brta) practice test as well as a couple more wrote by Ron Theiss,  There was a good bit of debate for the last hr about the questions
Parent - - By HJLBX Date 06-23-2016 17:59
The whole point of practice questions is for the person to develop problem solving skills involving the material covered.

Practice questions are NOT meant for the person to memorize the answers to specific questions.

Practice questions are meant to assist the person to understand the material. Also, to some extent, assist a person to memorize material covered.

Practice questions are the basis of all education - from grade school through university programs.  Developing problem solving skills via solving and answering practice questions is an integral part of learning.  The more vast the subject matter of the material, the more practice questions that are needed.

Real learning is done by solving problems - and that includes relevant practice questions - and not just field work.

Virtually all of the professions that require licensure and\or certification - engineers, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, nurses, medical technicians - the certification\licensure training includes huge banks of practice questions.  The whole rationale of the licensing\certifying bodies is that such questions assist the individuals to:

1.  Develop the requisite problem solving skills involving the material covered on the exams
2.  Reinforce understanding of the material
Parent - By TheNumber8 (*) Date 06-24-2016 14:18
HJLBX,

No offense, but I believe you are being misguided or are falling victim to your own theory.  Take a close look at the bold print I outlined from your post:

*******

"The whole point of practice questions is for the person to develop problem solving skills involving the material covered.

Practice questions are NOT meant for the person to memorize the answers to specific questions.

Practice questions are meant to assist the person to understand the material. Also, to some extent, assist a person to memorize material covered.

Practice questions are the basis of all education - from grade school through university programs.  Developing problem solving skills via solving and answering practice questions is an integral part of learning.  The more vast the subject matter of the material, the more practice questions that are needed.

Real learning is done by solving problems - and that includes relevant practice questions - and not just field work.

Virtually all of the professions that require licensure and\or certification - engineers, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, nurses, medical technicians - the certification\licensure training includes huge banks of practice questions.  The whole rationale of the licensing\certifying bodies is that such questions assist the individuals to:

1.  Develop the requisite problem solving skills involving the material covered on the exams
2.  Reinforce understanding of the material

As I stated before, practice questions are good but they are only a small part of the learning process.  BTW--I can assure you that through 4 years of college that none of my professors handed out banks of practice questions.  We were expected to attend class, read, and study.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Word Games

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