Hi Everyone!
I'm a long time lurker first time post-er. I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right section, please move me if need be.
I've got a few questions out there for all you experienced folks.
I would like to start a small welding business here in town and I would like to know how to do this legit and having the backup in case someone tries to sue me. I'm very apprehensive about liability and such but will stand behind my craftsmanship 100%.
A lil background on me.
I am a 7 year Journeyman Union Boilermaker with a fresh CWI Cert.
What do I need to do in order to get info about insurance and starting a welding business?
Would I need a WPQR for my alum and carbon TIG welds? I'm capable of doing the alum welds just not certified.
I'm certified for 6G carbon/SS/INCOL/9Crm 2.25" tube TIG/GMAW for various contractors, would I be able to use those certs if i were to weld carbon for customers outside of Boilermaking?
What other info or suggestions could you all give me to wrap my brain around this new endeavor?
Would I be able to back my welds with my CWI?
Who would I need to contact in order to get WPQR's for my projects? Would I need one?
I will be building alum or light gauge steel whitewater rafting frames and some automotive bumpers/roll bars/med duty off road stuff.
Any precautions I need to be concerned about?
I'm sure I can find some info about certification via inspection code books but I'm still very vague on where and what my resources would be to procure the answers. I hate to sound stupid and clueless but I need some guideance to shake the stupidity off.
thanks in advance
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Running out to get certified in this or that may be a waste of time and money unless you know exactly what your new customers will require for certification. I would talk to your clients first and see what certs they want to see on their projects and work to meet those needs. Put a system in place to keep whatever certifications you may acquire up to date and current(AWS D1.1 has a 6 month period of effectiveness). I'm thinking that some of your customers may want to re-test you even if you carry a suitcase full of paper with you.
Some of the others here know more about what types of insurance you will need to invest in to protect you and your business, so I'll let them chime in on that.
Edit: Welcome to the forum
Hey jwright650,
I got my CWI to further my career in the trade and to have a fall back plan when BM-ing gets a bit to hard on me. After stepping back and re-reading my post I may have over complicated my idea and confused myself.
As for the customers/clients they have no idea what certs are needed let alone re-testing timelines. They have just said whatever needs to happen to get the frames built. Are you suggesting I implement my own system such as weld procedures, qualifying welders (just myself), and get engineered prints/plans to cover my butt?
Welcome to the forum as a participant. There are many on here with their own businesses and should give you some better answers.
Your need for "certification" is based upon the products you weld and the codes that govern them OR how you sell or market your services. You as the business owner decide how you are going to proceed as far as your quality system etc...
There is a bit more to fabrication of products that a "solid weld". You may build a widget whacker in which all of the welds hold but the material fails because of design flaws related to the service.
Your welds are not backed really by anything other than how they perform. Regardless of how you do things, you will ALWAYS be responsible for what you do. All of the inspection and records will never relieve that. However being aware of all jurisdictional requirements (where they apply), industry codes/standards for your product(where they apply), and a system in place to control your processes (Quality Manual, inspections, Procedures etc...) will help you better control the quality of what you do and show an intent for you to try to do things correctly.
Read an R-1 form or RT reader sheet. Big waivers of liability for the inspection agencies however nothing for the manufacturer/contractor.
For your specific products, you could look at building procedures for welding that are specific to the materials, processes, and joints you will be using. Having a welder who has tested means nothing without a procedure qualified for the application. yes, a satisfactory weld can be made without ANY papers but we are talking more compliance.
You should receive some more information soon.
Have a great day
ooooooooh..........ok we're getting somewhere. your explanation has started to shed some light on the steps I need to think about.
just a quick recap so I fully understand what this means,
I should first think about how my product will be used, In my case it would fall under Structural D1.1 correct?
Should I get an engineered design/plan to have a base of structural integrity for the material I use?
is it necessary?
how would I get a procedure qualified? -------> sorry i know this is a newbie question.
and for the most part quality control, I can implement my own system as long as it meets the minimum requirements for that code?
No. It would not fall under D1.1. That is for steel structures. Typically the designer/engineer of a product would decide what code/specification would apply.
Not sure what the product is etc... but someone/some organization has to design it, figure out if it will be strong enough, decide what must be controlled during manufacture, and BE PREPARED to be responsible for any losses due to failure.
Just "welding it per code" is only a small part. Who selects the code? Gotta Read the scope in each one. Or write your own internal product specification.
Point is, there is much more to designing and building a product that some certifications if that product may fail and cause damage/injury. Not saying tons of things arent "made" daily that work and always will. It just takes on a different appearance when it becomes your business and you are concerned with liability.
also thanks for that helpful link!
--Most of your questions regarding welding procedures, qualifications, and inspections are pretty much dependent on what your customers are going to require. If you're selling your product to the general public, they could care less about these things and probably wouldn't even know what you were talking about. Don't worry about this stuff until somebody asks you for it. As long as you are producing quality products and following good manufacturing practices, you will be fine.
--The first and most important topic (in my opinion) is covering your butt when it comes to liability. The first thing I would do (and have done) is create an LLC (Limited Liability Company) and perform all work under this protection. This protects your personal assets, if somebody sues they can only go after your company.
--Here in Utah, this can easily be done online for less than $100
I hope this helps, and good luck!
WeldinFool yea you're correct about the general public not knowing or caring about what is required. I would like to have and understand all of these before i get questioned and say "i don't know", those are the last things I want to say to anyone.
Also is there a link on information about good manufacturing practices? I would like to know the guidelines of that.
LLC is looking pretty good for me......
WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!
1) 1 to 2 mil worth of Gen Liab per occurance
2) 1 mil worth of Worker's Comp
3) 1 mil worth of Job Site Auto/Hired Auto
4) 1 mil umbrella
5) 10,000 medical per person
6) If using CWI to do inspections: 1-2 mil Prof Services/Errors and Omissions
Not cheap.
then:
As a contractor, yes, get Certified through a Third Party either CWI or testing lab. Your company, you can certify yourself, but don't. Does not set a good baseline. The guys are right, some of the special welding, don't unless you find a demand for it that will pay soon and often. Stick with standard structural for your groundwork certs to get you in the door and do everyday, day in, day out work.
Personally, I would go with an S Corp for a welding business, but, as a minimum an LLC. It is cheaper with the LLC but they protect less; LIMITED LIABILITY, key word- LIMITED.
NO! You can only use your experience/certification to look at your own welds as your own QC prior to the TPI/Special Inspector looking at them. You should now be able to know that your work is truly ready for the QA and that there will be minimal repairs. Also, this means you have no excuse, can't say 'I didn't know' when it comes to all the required paperwork, preheat, rod ovens, etc, etc. It will ruin any reputation as a CWI real fast. I would seldom even tell anyone that you are a CWI in this regard, not part of the services you are providing at this point.
In AZ, we have to have a license through the Arizona Registrar of Contractors. Make sure if your state has such requirements.
What has a Boilermaker in common with Whitewater rafting equipment? Oh, well, Anything with public safety in such environments and the current sue happy society needs to be doubly safe and engineered and insured. Same with roll bars. Not so much bumpers.
Brent
Thanks for the loud welcome!!
![yell :yell:](/f2/epx.png)
the numbers you are crunching is scaring the hell out of me.
would I really need to get all of these if I wanted to start a very small custom rafting frame business?
1) 1 to 2 mil worth of Gen Liab per occurance
2) 1 mil worth of Worker's Comp
3) 1 mil worth of Job Site Auto/Hired Auto
4) 1 mil umbrella
5) 10,000 medical per person
6) If using CWI to do inspections: 1-2 mil Prof Services/Errors and Omissions
I'm looking into the LLC and yes I'm trying to understand what makes it "Limited" in my situation and product.
I agree with getting certified by a third party CWI. and yes thanks to all of you that got me in the right direction with jurisdiction. I will set up for structural.
why is is holding a CWI have nothing to do with my service? Wouldn't I be the one who sets up a Quality Control System?
Stamping the product OK'd by a CWI is unnecessary?
yes BM-ing has NOTHING to do with whitewater rafting.......but for a split second my mind joined the two thru welding. It was pretty late when I posted and I was making my question more complicated than it should have been.
![red :red:](/f2/epx.png)
Also thanks for that side note about contractors registering with the state and the requirements. I will also look that up but i feel its pretty relaxed here in Montana
I am very on edge about everyone being sue happy, especially when it comes to the extreme sports side of life. Any other suggestions you all have please feel free to bring it up as I don't know what to expect.
I have $1 mil GL, $1 mil vehicle, plus $2 mil....something else, don't look at the policy so can't remember exactly. Workers comp, depends on your state. In my state as the business owner I don't need workers comp, I am exempt. I am not a CWI so can't help with that. This has covered me in what I do, and I do some crazy stuff. I have been asked to carry $5 mil on a job, bid job, told them I wasn't going to raise my insurance to $5 million for a single job with a new client I might not hear from again. They got the paperwork in order to wave the $5 million requirement and I did the job.
Find an independent agent, talk to them about what you want to do and they will help guide you.
everyone has given you good advice on the code and insurance side. As an owner of a small business I would say make sure the work is there. Identify customers and bid on jobs before you are all setup, you can turn down a bid, but it's hard to drum up work that isn't there.
A lot of people try the "if you build it they will come route" and you end up being in the red for several months. I would rather have work lined up, business cards handed out and people calling me up before I setup.
Just my 2 cents.
What do I need to do in order to get info about insurance and starting a welding business? Call an independent insurance agent, not Allstate or any of those. Find a good agent and stick with them, there will be lots of questions asked by you in the future and a good knowledgeable agent is a must
Would I need a WPQR for my alum and carbon TIG welds? I'm capable of doing the alum welds just not certified.Only if you plan on doing aluminum and carbon tig welds for clients. Building bumpers and such, not sure being certified is going to increase your sales. Everybody and their brother is building that stuff.
I'm certified for 6G carbon/SS/INCOL/9Crm 2.25" tube TIG/GMAW for various contractors, would I be able to use those certs if i were to weld carbon for customers outside of Boilermaking? You will have to have procedures in your company name, with you as the welder specific to what you are doing. For example, I do gas pipe work for several clients, I carry my own procedures and test results for working on their system.
What other info or suggestions could you all give me to wrap my brain around this new endeavor? Patience, diligence, hard work, no vacations, broke, poor(for awhile). Others have listed good insurance amounts but a good agent will be able to help you on this. Depending on what you are doing, how much of a certain type of welding you are doing it can effect your premiums and amount of protection required. Business license, any contractor licenses your state requires. Federal Tax I.D, have to be sure Uncle Sam gets his portion of your hard work. Find good clients. Clients who pay quickly always go to the top of my list and will get a higher priority when it comes to future work. I did a job for a customer who, after I scheduled everything said, "We pay after 90 days". Something I learned I need ask because I would have turned down the job knowing that up front. Waiting 90 days for $520 from a multi million dollar company, not me. Make sure you have the legaleze on your invoices, contractor agreements when bidding or lining up work and getting paid. Have been screwed out of $9000 over the years, a good learning experience for sure.
Who would I need to contact in order to get WPQR's for my projects? Would I need one? Have to find a lab where you can do tests, independent CWI's that can write your procedures for, i.e., AWS D1.1 or whatever else. Most of the stuff I do I can use my paperwork, other things I do I have to test to the companies procedures. It'll all depend on the type of work you do, who you do it for.
Don't know if any of this will help, been shooting from the hip for almost 9 years as a business owner and would never go back to being a wage slave. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Find good clients, stick with them with quality work, being on time, doing what you say you are going to do. Good luck!
By devo
Date 09-29-2016 12:11
Edited 09-29-2016 12:37
I've built a few frames for whitewater companies and private boaters, and nobody asked for any certs. The first one I built got some real world proof testing by flipping in the V wave in Lava Falls, and all the gear and cooler stayed put. It's tough going up against the tinkertoy frames that NRS sells, as much as I love welded frames with bent tube, nobody really gives a sh*t if it's more expensive than straight tubes and speed rail fittings.
I mostly make decorative (i.e. if it fails catastrophically, no one will really notice) items for the architectural industry, along with some work for the local river companies, and I still carry the insurance coverages mentioned above. I have a whole list of exclusions to my policy, including "tank work". I had a customer (local porta-john provider) call me to weld in some stainless pipe clamps into the bottom of their poop processing tank. I called my insurance company and explained the nature of the work and how it was a one time job, and they said it was fine. One thing to remember about being insured, you will be audited at the end of every year, and they can decide that you need to be charged a higher premium based on the work you have done.
"I am very on edge about everyone being sue happy, especially when it comes to the extreme sports side of life. Any other suggestions you all have please feel free to bring it up as I don't know what to expect. " Welcome to the angst of being a business owner. It's the rich c*nts that you have to be wary about. If you are a boater, then you know very well the
horrendous beatings these rafts can take. Which is why I like welded frames.