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- - By weldhawk71 (**) Date 10-26-2010 18:39
Does, in fact not opinion, a Certififcation to  (for example) D1.1 hold anymore weight than a Qualification to D1.1?
     I'm a CWI at a Community College and we send all of our students plates to a independent lab as to remain unbiased but I also do outside testing for companies. The problem I run into is that the instructor that has been teaching the program for the last 32 years has been telling everyone that tests, administered at our non AWS accredited school, that they are certified when they pass a bend test. I inform everyone that we qualify welders, not certify and explain why. The other instructor told me to stop telling people this. I told him that ethically i will not.
  My problem is that i'm administering tests at companies and they tend to stress over the difference between "Certified" and "Qualified".
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-26-2010 18:46
It is a welder qualification test that is administered to the student, then a qualification record is produced and a letter of certification can then be written by the school to certify/attest to the fact that the student passed the test.

Hope that makes sense.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 10-26-2010 19:46
We qualify guys using the Washington Association of Building Officials (WABO) "Welder and Welding Operator Performance Qualification Standard 27-13".

Within this particular standard they freely use the term "Certification" and "Welder Certification".  For example:  "Welders and welding operators may become certified by WABO in one or more of the following categories...."  (Section 27-13.4 Welder Certification).  Another example:  "For certifications to remain valid...." (Section 27-13.4.6.1 Welder Certificates).  And "Welders and welding operators may become certified by WABO..." (Section 27-13.4)

Right or wrong, I have seen at least one state construction contract that specifically required "certified" or "WABO certified" welders.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-26-2010 20:44
The qualification is the act of welding the requisite test coupons and passing the required nondestructive and/or destuctive tests, i.e., the guided bends or fillet break tests, etc.

The certification is the signature at the bottom of the performance test record attesting to the fact that the welder (named on the test record) passed the required tests in accordance with _"fill in the blank" __ welding standard or code.

When I qualify a welder, I certify that I witnessed the test and the test results. The employer has to cosign the test record (or the welder if he is self-employed) to certify the test results are as stated in the test record and accepting legal responsibility the test record is accurate.

Never forget that the employer is legally responsible fo the work and actions of the employee while he is on company time, whether he or she is welding, talking to a customer, or driving the truck to or from the job site.

In the short form, the certification is simply the signature of the individual attesting to the fact the welder passed the required tests and the test record is accurate.  Qualification is the actual welding of the test coupons. Since the test record contained in the annex of AWS welding standards, ASME Section IX, and API 1104 contains the certifying statements and appropriate signatures, it is considered to be the "certification" , i.e., a separate letter is not required.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By weldhawk71 (**) Date 10-26-2010 23:07
Does the documentation need to be notarized?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-27-2010 03:26
Does the code require that anything be noterized?    

Does the company paying the person responsible for signing the welder performance qualification test report to have the paperwork (read certificate) notorized?

If yes... notorization is required.

If no...  notorization not required.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 10-27-2010 00:21
That has to be about the best way to describe qualifying welders i have ever heard or seen.
Parent - - By weldhawk71 (**) Date 10-27-2010 01:22
I was under the assumption that the lab in which the weldor took the test had to be an AWS certified lab. Thanks for all the help, it is greatly appreciated!!!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-27-2010 04:54 Edited 10-27-2010 05:06
There is no code requirement, i.e., AWS D1.1, ASME Section IX, etc., that requires the test be administered by a third party, much less an AWS Accredited Test Facility. Likewise, there is no requirement for the welder performance test record to be notarized. 

The test record is certified by the employer, it is not a sworn statement.

All I can say about the AWS ATF is, "God save us from ourselves!"

People seem to overlook the important fact that the welder qualification test is no different from the driver's test given to the 16-year old. On a particular day of the week, when the stars were aligned, there was no lunar eclipse, and the welder did everything correctly; he passed the required test. It is not a warrantee that the welder will never make a bad weld, it doesn't even profess to say that in all cases, under any circumstance, with any welding machine, the welder can make a sound weld. The welding standards do not even require the welder to "set up" his or her own machine. It is a simple demonstration that the welder could deposit 3 or 6-inches of relatively sound weld metal. It does not even mean the weld was without any discontinuities; only that it was "sound enough" to satisfy the requirements of the applicable welding standard.

All the welder performance test record provides is objective evidence that the welder took and passed a prescribed performance test with a certain welding process, with a certain filler metal, with a certain base metal, blah, blah, blah. Big deal. It gets you on a job site, but it will not keep you there unless you perform and meet the requirements of the applicable welding standard to the satisfaction of the employer. If you screw up enough, it is bye-bye or a new test.

I, for one, always require the welder to pass at least the fillet break test on the job-site using the equipment that will be used on a daily basis. That is, if I am involved in developing the project specifications or if I can legitimately reject the paperwork offered by the welder when I arrive at the site. I really do not care that the welder passed a test under the laboratory conditions many welder performances tests are given. They do not represent what the welder will be dealing with in the field or on the shop floor. I like to see the welder hook up his own welding leads, adjust the welding machines controls, and fit-up the backing bar and extension tabs. Once that has been done, the welder is ready to make sparks. That is not what is required by the welding standards, those are Al's rules when taking an "Al's Test" and if he is going to receive a piece of paper with my name attesting to the fact that the welder knows the fundamentals of depositing a sound weld. 

To be fair to all involved, all the requirements are documented and presented to the welder at the time of the test. Together, the welder(s) and I review the requirements, the "do's and don’ts" of taking the test, and the acceptance criteria that will be used to gauge the completed weld. There are no secrets, I do not change course in the middle of the stream, and the welder knows exactly what is expected before he/she strikes the first arc.

I supply only the test plates that are beveled beforehand. The welder supplies everything else down to the toothpick in his mouth. If he is dumb enough to use   "rehydrated E6010 electrodes,” so be it, he's going to fail. It is his (or his employer's) money and if he wants to throw it away, who am I to protest? The profit is twice as nice the second time around. If the welder believes using a multipass flux cored electrode means he does not have to chip the slag between passes, so be it. Weld class begins after the check has cleared and the test plates fail the bend test. 

The welder performance test record is not sacrosanct. I reject many of them because the forms are not completed properly, there is missing information, a missing signature, the wrong gas, etc.

“Sorry buddy, you have to take another test.”

"What's that? A P.E. signed it and his mother is a CWI! So what, who cares, the idiot cannot even fill in the test record properly. Sorry buddy, you have to take another test."

The rant of the day is done.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 05-18-2011 22:07
Al-
How often do you see the employer provide a written WPS (not the picture of the test plate out of D1.1) but an actual pre- or qualified WPS to the welder who is about to take the test?
And, if they do, what percentage of welders about to take the test make reference to the written WPS?
Thanks,
ziggy
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-19-2011 03:12
Ziggy;

I can only speak for myself. Whether other people don't do it doesn't make it right.

D1.1 says the welder is to follow a WPS when taking a performance test. Clause 4.21 (D1.1-2006) clearly states the welder is to follow a WPS when qualifying. In D1.1-2010 the same requirement is found in clause 4.22. It is not a new requirement, it has been around for years. Whether an employer or testing lab chooses to ignor the requirements of the code is not something I have control over. I do have control over how I conduct my tests and I do.

No WPS, no test.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 05-20-2011 15:31
thanks al

oftentimes when examining test records (WPQR) they lack the wps requirement from the code. too often folks interpret the "specification" reference on their forms to mean "code" and put "D1.1" or similar in that field rather than a wps number (as well as the wps revision and date...my training was that that entire line on the form is referring to the wps, revision and date of the wps...not the date of the welder's test...that date appears lower on the form...might be wrong on that one but just the way i was taught)

the code requirement of having the wps is quite practical and fair. to me it serves at least two purposes: 1 - fair to the welder who has to produce a sound weld; the wps provides the basic "ground rules" and 2 - fair to the company whereby it allows them to see if the welder is familiar with a wps; i have seen where a handful of companies hand the wps and plates to the welder and turn them loose for the test...

thanks again al. i have seen some of your work in my travels and appreciate your adherence to the codes.

ziggy
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-20-2011 16:25
I try. I may not always succeed, but it isn't for a lack of trying.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-27-2010 05:20
That's how it was described to me many years ago.

Thanks anyway.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-27-2010 10:28
Maybe I should "qualify" (pun intended) my certification letter statement, as Al stated a seperate letter is not required, but I have compiled all of the seperate test(s) results and qualification ranges of the individual onto one document which I submit to our customer's EOR during the approval/submission process. This greatly cuts down on the amount of paper being submitted. I keep the original welder qualification test form in my files and is available to anyone authorized to review them. It is just the method we use and is not a requirement.
Hope that cleared up any confusion created by my statement.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-27-2010 10:31
This is a good question and it comes up from time to time, so I'm going to use this thread as a sticky in this forum to help others as they look for answers to this same question in the future.
Hope this helps,
Parent - By UIWmike Date 03-18-2014 01:46
I do believe that certification is the documentation to prove qualifiaction.:cool:
Parent - - By twalker Date 05-04-2016 20:21
Weldhawk71,
    First of all, let me say that I would be glad to put my two cents into this discussion. Your questions seem to revolve around AWS D1.1, and you are asking the questions after the new edition 2015 has been officially published, so My responses will be within the purview of that edition. Note: Clause 4, Part C "Performance Qualification", section 4.15 "The qualification test are not intended to be used as guides for welding or tack welding during actual construction. The latter shall be performed in conformance with a WPS". The Washington Association of Building Officials (WABO), an organization who's only relevance, as I see it to this discussion is their dubious use of the word certification. I think the casual reader of this code (D1.1) will be hard pressed to find the word certification attached to anything in either Clause 3 or 4. Since WABO and obviously many welding programs at the community collages like to bandy the term certification around as an advertisement hook, this code (D1.1) Refers to the "paper" as a "Welding performance qualification record (WPQR). Personally I think that your instructor has a dog in the fight. If his students think they can take these pieces of paper to a shop and it will be a magic pass to welding stardom they have some disappointments coming. Sometimes shops will call a qualification a certification within the walls of their business, that's fair. They could call it anything they want to call it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a qualification and it doesn't transfer from one business to another. As far as outside testing facilities, I'd  write a good Prequalified WPS and do bend test and maybe etch test in you class. Save the money. also, be careful throwing terms like fair play, honesty and ethically around too freely, those are somewhat antiquated terms in the twenty-first century. :neutral:
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-04-2016 21:32
"Your questions seem to revolve around AWS D1.1, and you are asking the questions after the new edition 2015 has been officially published,..."


In actual fact, he asked his questions 5 years before the 2015 edition was published :)

Nonetheless,  Welcome to the forum twalker !!!

.
Parent - By Fernando Novaes Date 07-30-2016 04:29
In Brazil we adopt the following explanation:

Certifications is the proof you either has passed or has done some course with a schedule pre fixed it must have a workload;

Qualifications is the proof that you are able to do something through specifics requiments (this requirements may require a certification or not);

Certificate usually is done as a document to proof that you really did what you are saying you did it is usually made in both cases (Certifications and Qualifications)

* To do a welder qualification does not need necessarily a certificate of some course (certification).
- By qcrobert (***) Date 12-22-2010 23:27 Edited 06-22-2011 17:17
Anyone that is "knowledgeable" may generate a WPS, establish a PQR (do the bend tests himself, send the tensile specimens to a lab) and later witness & write up a WPQ.

QCRobert
AWS CWI
Level II MT & PT
- - By Mhoneycutt Date 08-23-2011 15:41
Does any one know of a specific certification that would cover the welding of crane boom. lacing etc. Or is it covered by general D.1 certs?
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 08-23-2011 22:38
Mhoneycutt

First Welcome to the American Welding Society Online Forum.

You might check into this.

American Welding Society Announces New Edition of AWS D14.3/D14.3M,
Specification for Welding Earthmoving, Construction, and Agricultural Equipment

This was in 2005

http://www.aws.org/pr/dec13-2005.html

Again Welcome to the Forum

Marshall
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-24-2011 00:46
Mhoneycutt

You must first get permission from the Boom or the Crane Manufacturer.  The Manufacturer will tell you what the repair procedures are, what the qualification Requirements are, and whether or not you will be allowed to execute the repairs.
Parent - By UIWmike Date 03-18-2014 01:52
Did somebody hit it with a sky track or other equipment?
- - By Tarek Yehia Date 11-15-2011 11:35
Hello all experts,

i'm going to apply for AWS-CWEng. , Is anybody can guide me or send me some study material even if to buy it.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-15-2011 12:18
Short on time this morning.  Go to the main website and look under 'Certifications'.  You should be able to move through that section and find all the info you need.  I'll try to check back this evening and see if you have posted any success.  If not, I'll see if I can give you further direction and suggestions.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By damiaugus Date 01-29-2016 13:43
Brent.
I also want to apply for the Welding engineer certification. Do you have some study materials or can you suggest me something?

thanks,
- - By pax23 (**) Date 03-28-2012 14:49
Here is a simply way to look at the question of qualification vs certification.

Qualified to what? D1.1, ASME IX, API 1104, etc.

Certified by whom? AWS, ASNT, Company X, Inspector X, etc.

Some codes or standards carry more weight and acceptance than others. Likewise some certifications carry more weight and acceptance than others.

If you see it written anywhere that qualified welders are required the first question you should ask is qualified to what?

If you see it written anywhere that certified welders are required the first question you should ask is certified by whom? The next question should be to what qualification (code/standard) do you want the certifying body to attest to?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-28-2012 15:44
AWS A3.0  Standard Welding Terms and Definitions says this:

Welder Certification: Written verification that a welder
has produced welds meeting a prescribed standard of welder
performance.

Welder Performance Qualification: The Demonstration of
a welder's or welding operator's ability to produce welds meeting
prescribed standards.

Welder Registration: The act of registering a welder certification '
or a photostatic copy of the welder certification.

I think the above data when informed by the commentary provided earlier in this thread by Al (803056) on the  Date 10-26-2010   Gives the best perspective on this question....  Keeping in mind this is a particularly "American" perspective.

ISO and Europen Norms (EN's)  Have very exact *and complex at times* hierarchies of terms, roles, and responsibilities that need to be judged or interpreted within their own particular framework of nomenclature.

The same is also true to a lesser extent even between AWS, ASME and the U.S. Department of Defense.
Parent - - By pax23 (**) Date 04-14-2012 22:07
I think how I explained it is in-line with the A3.0 definitions and Al's expansive explanation and examples. It is just a very simplistic way to say the same thing.

I think this is one issue that is made unnecessarily complex.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-15-2012 00:40
In some ways I very much agree Pax.

But in my experience, so many managers, foremen, leads, engineers and other people who are thrust into positions of authority make grevious errors by misunderstanding these terms.. Furthermore a significant minority of these same people manipulate their systems in order to avoid the expense and hassle of true compliance by misusing the terms we are discussing...

For those reasons It's good to have a very good grasp of these specific terms and how they can apply and be able to be conversant with them from a number of different perspectives..

Code is code... we comply or we dont... We use proper terms or we dont..  Just as you explained...  Yet still trouble occurs all too often.... So larger "more expansive" explainations and examples are important, especially to people new to creating or maintaining quality programs
- - By jrtaofi Date 05-05-2013 16:27
A structural steel certified welder welding a fillet weld on plate to pipe. plate A572- gr50(0.750") to A53 gr.-B 2" diameter sch40. Does the welder have to qualify for pipe certification since the pipe is less than 24" in diameter?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-05-2013 20:37
Yes.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-05-2013 22:26
Brent,
Would that not be dependent on which direction the plate is welded to the pipe - longitudinally or circumferentially ?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-06-2013 03:27
You are correct Shane.  I guess I just assumed a circumferencial weld since the OP gave us the diameter of the pipe.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 05-08-2013 01:59
I would disagree Brent. If the qualification test was on plate,  PJP and CJP welds on pipe are limited to 24" or greater, there is no limitation on pipe for fillet welds. see table 4.10.
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-08-2013 04:33
Good pickup C.Tacker - I was too busy thinking about the orientation of the pipe.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-08-2013 14:12
I agree as well.  That's what I get for answering when rushed and not grabbing my codebook and/or thinking it through all the way. 

My mind was saying 'only over 24" is qualified by plate' but that is not completely true (thus it is false).

Thanks for correcting my mistake.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- By iris Date 10-15-2013 14:39
Hello everybody
I need some help with interpretation of Table 5.3 Note b ( or par 5.3.3.1 item 2 ) of AWS D17.1 :2010 
The case is related to test weld of :
Material Thickness : 1.2 mm - Sheet 
Position : 1G
Based on the above welder is qualified to perform :
Sheet Grove : 1G  Thickness  0.8 to 4.8 mm
Tube Grove : 1G    Thickness 0.8 to 4.8 mm
Sheet fillet : 1F & 2F  Thickness 1.7 to 4.8 mm
Tube fillet : 1F   Thickness 1.7 to 4.8 mm

Customer doesn't accept the qualification for fillet welds saying that it is not correct to AWS D17  since a butt weld of material  less than 1.6mm thick has been tested.

He claims that in Note 2 of Table 5.3 the word Qualification is equal to TESTING ( as per his interpretation in order to be approved to weld fillets on thicknesses above 1.6 mm - groove testing shall be performed on pieces over 1.6 mm )

Our understanding is that in Note 2 of Table 5.3 the word Qualification is equal to APPROVAL ( groove testing can be performed at any thickness and have the approval for 0.67 - 4t    EXCEPT fillet welds in materials of less than  1.6 mm  )
- - By MBlaha (***) Date 10-06-2014 17:37
If a welder qualification test is rejected by a third party RT, can the plates be sent to different third party testing agency, be qualified by bending?
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-18-2015 12:55
No.

Al
- - By Spotshooter1 Date 03-01-2016 19:36
Are A.W.S. accredited test facilities required to allow access to wps / pqr's?  Our shop recently hired a welder with lots of certifications from a facility in Illinois.  Many of our customers require us to submit wps for approval before beginning work. I asked for copies of the wps's listed on the welder's qualification records and was refused.  The way I see it, none of this welders certs are any good without access to the wps/pqr's.  Has anyone had this problem?
Thanks
Benton
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-01-2016 22:57
His WPS's have nothing to do with your submittal.  They are only good for him doing his own work and/or when taking a test. 

You need your own WPS's written to be applicable to your work. 

You may be right, his certs may not be any good for your facility.  You need to qualify and certify him yourself.  Even if he was tested and is on record through an ATF. 

Brent
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-01-2016 23:09
How I wished this was the case in the UK......
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-04-2016 14:55
Sorry this response is several months too late, but .....

Whether the WPS used for the welder performance test is dependent on the code and on the customer's requirements. The project specifications would or should include any provision that is not addressed by the applicable code.

If your customer is requesting documentation that supports the welder qualification and there are provisions in the project specification, he is entitled to review the WPS as well as the supporting PQR.

There are reasons why a client would not accept qualifications performed at an ATF. If the welder is being tested to ASME Section IX and the construction code is process piping, the employer must be present and must "supervise" the examination. Certain fluid service classes prohibit welder qualification by a third party. In many circumstances, the ATF my use a SWPS, again not universally approved by ASME and there is a question whether a contractor utilizing API 1104 would accept performance qualification to another employer's WPS.

I've seen welder qualification test records provided by AWS that do not list all the essential variables needed to assess the welder's qualifications by reviewing the record. Several I've reviewed didn't list whether the welded the coupon with or without backing.

I routinely reject welder qualifications issued by AWS through an ATF.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By michaevn33 Date 08-12-2016 08:27
[deleted]
Parent - - By Dtaylor7018 Date 04-29-2017 21:38
Hello,
I'm new to the Cwi stuff.
Do you have to have a written wps to perform  welder performance qualification test
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-30-2017 01:21
Well, first question would be what code are we talking about.

If it is D1.1:2015, then YES. 

See Clause 4.18.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-30-2017 02:09
The requirement for a WPS for welder qualification is pretty common among all codes. The item you really need is a copy of the code which will be followed for qualification. Then within that code, you would find the information you need.

What code will be used?
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