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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Advice on first TIG machine
- - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-19-2017 19:48
Hello!
I am looking into getting a welder because I often am approached by people to weld/make things for them. I have taken TIG and MIG classes, and have done commissioned work for people, but always with borrowed machines, or machines from my community college. Thankfully I am in an internship that will allow me to be able to afford a decent machine.

I would like to get a TIG machine because I can do a wide range of welding with it (while it is more time consuming), and I would like to keep up with that skill.
I was curious if anyone had any suggestions for good TIG machines, for under $3000.  My welding teacher said he never bought anything that wasn't blue or red because he couldnt afford the down time and loved that he could get them fixed quickly at any local place. I have used Hobarts however, and have not had an issue with them, and it is my understanding they are owned by Miller anyways.
I have TIG welded on Dynasties, and on Lincoln Precision TIG 225s.

I was originally looking at the Precision TIG 225, it seemed like a great machine for the price and came with everything I needed. I then started watching weld.com videos on youtube and found out about Everlast, however as I am sure many have heard, they have a popular nickname, "neverlast".
After doing some digging I came across Lincoln's Square Wave TIG 200, which has similar capacities to the 225, and is significantly, lighter and smaller, (something very attractive to a college student), not to mention, it would allow me to easily take my machine to different locations without having too much of a hassle.

I bet many would say to buy a mig first since it is easier to work with, and great for all around home use, but I love the extra control I have over my weld when I am using TIG.
I am by no means consider myself an expert, and am open to any and all input, advice, and learning.

Thank you
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-19-2017 20:19
By reading your post it seems like you are thinking things out very well sir.

Everlast (and other Chinese, Korean and Asian) units can sell you a unit that will do everything a Dynasty can do for less than 1/4 the price....   Is there some risk?  yes.     Is there some nationalistic resentment by Americans about foreign equipment... Yes....    I'm glad they are making them, if only to drive down the prices of the U. S. units.

Blue and Red make nice little units in your price range......  Look at the little things like foot pedals, torches, ability to be water cooled.... Inverter vs transformer is a big thing.

Also a thought, but a little risky.. Used equipment...  Plenty of good stuff out there...  Anything with Squarewave AC that will plug into your garage 220 without burning the house down might be an option....     Synchrowave 250's with water coolers can be found in your range used.   Synchrowave is the best SMAW machine I've ever used.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 07-19-2017 20:47
The Squarewave is an inverter and the precision Tig is a transformer/rectifier machine.

I think the warranty is the same on both. I also would imagine that there have been more inverters returned for repairs over the years than transformer/rectifiers. This is based upon speaking with 2 repair techs at local welding suppliers. Understand that that is only a small part of the real world.

An inverter will not have the same electrical load for the same output.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-20-2017 13:42
can you please elaborate on the electrical load for the same output. Are you saying the inverter will not have as good a duty cycle as the transformer machine?
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 07-21-2017 19:11
Here are the specs for the inverter. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K5126-1(LincolnElectric)

Here are the specs for t he transformer/rectifier.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K2535-1(LincolnElectric)

Very similar power outputs however the input current and machine weights are quite different.
Parent - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-22-2017 23:52
oh I see, so the amperage inputs are different, and you get a far better duty cycle from the transformer huh
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-20-2017 13:32
I agree, the everlasts are extremely attractive for that exact reason, for $1600 I could get a machine that does what a $3000+ unit could do. And no I am not running a professional shop, just looking to grow my skills, supplement my income, and have fun, BUT paying $200 round trip, to ship my machine, not to mention the horror stories of people being given the run around by the service department makes me weary, as Im sure you can understand.
Shoot, I would order one tomorrow if I felt like I could trust it.

as far as syncrowaves, I will say, that syncrowave 210 from miller is very attractive
https://www.millerwelds.com/equipment/welders/tig-gtaw/syncrowave-210-tig-welders-m00488
being able to MIG and TIG all in the same machine, AND do aluminum TIG is huge, I believe that is the only multiprocess machine I have seen that does mig and AC TIG. I have seen the ESAB rebels which look awesome, but alas, no AC TIG.
P.S. Can anyone give any input on ESAB? I have seen some esabs and thermal arc fabricators on the web for not bad prices but have not had any experience with them.

As far as inverter vs. transformer, I have heard that inverters are great for small units that pack a punch, but as you get into higher amperage, the transformers really start to shine due to consistency and reliability.

as far as used equipment, yes I have heard there is plenty of good stuff out there, the only fear again is, keeping the warranty.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-20-2017 16:24
Take another look at the Miller 210 my friend.

There is NOTHING on the market that does MIG and AC Tig with Squarewave........ Nothing.

If anybody knows different, I will buy them a lobster dinner after I purchase the machine for my garage.

I think the Asian market might do this one day soon.... But right now there is an entire sales industry that would sacrifice selling 2 machines, where available technology can easily accommodate CV GMAW and CC Squarewave GTAW with the same power supply....... The only thing stopping anybody from doing this is profit lost selling one machine when they are currently selling two.

Thus endith the rant.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-20-2017 23:03
haha So, what I am taking from you, is that the miller 210, would be a great idea. I do like the idea of having all in one.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-21-2017 11:30
What I'm saying is that NOBODY has an all in one  :(

Maybe some day.

I have some preferences between blue and red... But mostly those preferences are with the high end models...   Miller is not as user friendly with their touch pad schemes.   For entry level units between Lincoln, Miller, ESAB and Thermal Dynamics...  I think they all have good value and performance as well as customer service... But the service can sometimes be stronger in one region over another....  But really with those 4 brands... I would prolly go with price unless somebody was willing to throw in some extras.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-21-2017 19:07 Edited 07-21-2017 19:11
This is coming from the description of the miller welder: "The Syncrowave's inverter technology allows for Constant Current (CC) welding output for AC/DC TIG, Pulsed TIG and stick welding AND Constant Voltage (CV) welding output for MIG welding with the Spoolmate 150 spool gun."

Its is the only machine I have seen that does AC/DC tig as well as MIG and stick.

I am not super keen on touch screen vs nobs and dials either.

So between those brands, just go with bang for buck on accessories and features huh? Great to know! Thank you, those are 4 brands that seem pretty reputable.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-22-2017 19:40 Edited 07-22-2017 19:43
Ok.... Gonna have to dig deeper...  I thought I knew something and it looks like I might be wrong.

If that unit can do Squarewave GTAW with AC..... And be hooked up to a feeder for CV GMAW...  Im'a gonna buy one...

And by you a lobster :)

Edit:  I followed your lead and looked up the Miller 210.........  Unbelievable.

That is the one you want.

That is the one I want
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-23-2017 00:16
Ok so then onto my follow up question.

Material thickness,
it says it will do  up to 1/4" thick mild steel, but what about multiple passes? I have ran welds with a hobart, and the inside guide says, at a certain thickness you needed to run multiple passes.

So just because a machine says it can do up to 1/4" thick, how much can you actually do? I know with TIG I have heard you can get more out of the machine by tweaking the settings
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-23-2017 03:35
use this for a start
https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/weld-setting-calculators/tig-welding-calculator
and also has for smaw, gmaw and fcaw
sincerely,
Kent
btw there are others on the internet
fronius has a GREAT one
start with simple then move on
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-22-2017 12:05 Edited 07-22-2017 12:09
Lawrence is correct
dollar for dollar get the miller 210
for the budget you said
the best for home, small work around $3,000 usd
you can go used and get way better
but need alot of knowledge
to pull that off
buy new
sincerely,
Kent
btw
Mr Wright is correct
I have used a few Eastwood machines
for the price can be GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but hit or miss:eek:
some good some awful:eek:
Parent - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-22-2017 23:57
Thanks!
It does seem very attractive. I would not be using it all day like in a fab shop, but would like to use for small jobs that friends ask me to do, and fun projects. I wont be welding heavy equipment all day, or fabbing up 30 parts in a row.... yet haha

Thanks guys.

Yes as my teacher said, you can totally buy used, if you know who you are buying from, and can run the machine through its paces when you go to pick it up, but I am just not experienced enough with that yet.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-23-2017 06:44
You are not kidding about Eastwood.

I am looking at a lot of different possibilities, and was looking at getting a separate mig and tig machine, and I stumbled across the Eastwood MIG 250 and holy crap!  http://www.eastwood.com/mig-250-welder-eastwood.html

$800. 3 year warranty that is the perfect median between everlast inverter technology with crap service, and blue/red service, but high prices.
20 gauge to 1/2" steel and I believe quarter inch aluminum
120 and 240 volt
60% DUTY CYCLE AT 250 AMPS, and the machine goes from 30 to 250 amps!
The big standout, is that unlike the everlasts which appear to make people wait 6 months for a new machine, the eastwood reviews have 4 stars and up out of 35 reviews! And anyone that had a overload issue or problems with their welder was sent a new one within two weeks! The only other issues I have seen are complaints on availability of consumables, and length of torch lead. But I figure that can be fixed with some stockpiling and I have seen some people do some craft wiring.

But at that price point, just getting a lincoln square wave 200, or shelling out a lil extra for a precision tig 225 looks very attractive!
That miller 210 is big, and the TIG capabilities are not any better than the lincoln square wave. Not to mention, I have only seen the miller 210 to come with a spool gun, no regular gun, which is great if all you do is weld aluminum, but if you dont, that is alot of gun to be swinging around..

Just some things I have noticed with my research recently
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-23-2017 09:10
look at your budget
tell us we can help
we know everyone in this business
we are here to help and inform :cool::smile::yell:
this is what the people here have always done
(Alfred why we want an open forum not members only):razz::eek::twisted::yell::evil::wink:
we share our knowledge
because sharing is caring:smile::cool::yell:
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-24-2017 10:44
I know people @ ESAB
been buying Victor, Stoody and Thermal Dynamics stuff for decades
(everyone knows how I love stoody filler:smile::cool:)
I like them
I like Fronius also
then your paying for top of the line
look @ what gets you most for your $$$$$$$$$$$$$
your just starting
start small and go low cost
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-25-2017 03:16
Right now to be honest, I am looking very closely at getting that Eastwood MIG 250, the power + portability + duty cycle is extremely impressive and attractive. Not to mention even though it is Chinese, and people have stated issues with the machines, they have still given it 4 stars and up on the reviews, because the customer service is so great. The only other downside to the machine, is the fact that alot of people have raised concern with the gun they use. I guess the 10 foot length is too short for some people and the consumables are not readily available in local welding shops, so you usually need to stock on from eastwood apparently. I am wondering if some handywork could be done, putting in a different gun from another company on my own, and eliminating that issue down the line.

By doing that i could have $2200 (ignoring shipping fees) left over to invest in a TIG machine.
And with that I was deciding between the precision TIG 225, and the squarewave 200.  The precision TIG would make me go a little over budget, and would not be portable like the squarewave 200, but i have welded on them and the micro start helps limit blowout, which the weld.com review of the squarewave 200 did state could be troublesome with really thin material. Not to mention the precision tig has a better duty cycle, and an extra 30 amps of capacity, AND you can control post flow, which I heard is rather long on the squarewave 200. I believe the features and controls are very similar between the two models other than that (such as cleaning, and pulse etc)

I am going to make a spreadsheet comparing the features of all my different options across all the companies.

But honestly after seeing the eastwood machine and all its capabilities, it changed my mind on alot of my options.
Plus the size and cost of the miller 210 turns me away, because for that size and price, I could have two, more portable machines, that are focused on their process, and have the same capabilities as the 210.
I could buy the eastwood for $800, and the squarewave 200 for $1500, and I would two portable machines, that do more work than the 210 in the MIG process, and probably take up about the same amount of space (if stacked) as the 210. and I would still have $500 left over.
Parent - By PhilThomas (**) Date 07-26-2017 18:39
"(everyone knows how I love stoody filler)"

Always good to hear!!!

<g>
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-19-2017 21:04
I made a mistake buying my first TIG machine. Maybe not a mistake, but I didn't get what I was expecting. I purchased a TIG200 from Eastwood. It's an inverter machine and runs on 115 or 230v. What I thought I was getting was a TIG machine that I could also run SMAW (stick) on...however the TIG leads do not lend themselves to attaching a stinger to hold the stick electrode. I chucked up a small 3/32" 7018 in the TIG collet but I didn't like how that was working out.
I "thought" that I would get two machines for an extremely nice price. As for running as a TIG machine, I can't complain about it as it does have high freq A/C for less than half the cost of other TIG machines and a 200 amp capacity at an average duty cycle. I think I caught it on sale for $699. Eastwood (whomever is building them for Eastwood) has added a bunch of other features to that machine since I bought mine, and the cost has risen some due to the extras....and the connectors were a bit cheap looking and made of thin plastic.
Parent - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-20-2017 13:22
My teacher said you CAN do stick with a tig machine, but he always felt like it was sketchy, and that it could make the machine act weird. He always liked to use a specific machine for each purpose, vs. having a machine that could "do it all". I will say that most machines I have seen do come with a stinger along with you tig torch
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 07-20-2017 17:21
Some < 75 pound inverters will permit using a single or three phase primary input with voltages 120, 200, 240 or 480 volts ac. With a bucket full of 2 foot long "extension" cords (fyi ~ OSHA doesn't like the term "adapters") with a variety of male plugs with common female receptacles to fit one male plug hard wired to the welding machine. Therefore the machine can be made tremendously portable.
For GTAW welding, electrode negative provides the deepest penetration/depth of fusion therefore when AC is used; having the means to unbalance the AC sine wave/square wave to have more time at electrode negative provides the potential to weld thicker material for less amperage. For GTAW thinner materials using AC or DCEN; a machine having a pulsing control that breaks the surface tension of the weld pool without melting the entire material is a very handy feature.
SMAW with these machines should have the ability to adjust the DIG/ARC FORCE or Arc Control. Ideally, this would be functional  using DCEP, DCEN and AC. The DIG/ARC FORCE or Arc Control is additional amperage (above and beyond the main/set welding amperage) at a low voltage situation; usually 19 to 21 volts with a short, tight arc length (think open root full penetration). A normal arc length voltage would usually be 25 to 40 volts, depending on electrode and its diameter.
These "Bells & Whistles" as they are called by many who do not know how or what advantage they present the welder.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-21-2017 00:02
Wow that is very interesting. Thank you.
I believe unbalancing the sine wave/square wave is also a way to effect how much cleaning action is done correct? I need to learn more about how to properly use pulse settings, because I heard it can be very helpful for machines that dont have a very low amperage start.

Those two features seem very important for AC welding
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 07-21-2017 14:42
yes unbalancing the sine wave / square wave AC will provide oxide cleaning but if the weld area is mechanically/abrasive cleaned, very little oxide needs to be cleaned by the arc. Therefore most times 65% time at negative which would be 35% the maximum time at positive; This 35% positive should be the maximum oxide cleaning time. Oxide clean material can be readily welded with 75% time at negative and 25% time at positive.
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-21-2017 19:13
wow thank you, that is very good to know. I have seen people using chemical wipes on materials, that seem very effect. What are your opinions on the best ways to clean them both mechanically and chemically?

And could you suggest a resource to learn more about that cleaning settings and sine/square waves?

Thank you
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 07-25-2017 01:36
Millerwelds.com and follow their links and drop down menu.
Stainless Steel wire net/wire mesh. A good source is Norwex which is a household cleaning supplies company. A clean & degreased file; filing by going only one direction. Do not go back and forth; this will "smear" the oxide
Parent - - By TIGWIG (*) Date 07-25-2017 03:24
TO follow up on your "extension cord" statement. I was curious about that, even though they can accept all different types of voltages, you are usually only give 2 plugs. So you are saying you could make a bunch of different adapters, aka "extension cords" so you could fit all the different voltages? That is because 230 vs 240 have different plugs huh? I still need to do alot of reading about all the different voltages and amperages
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 07-26-2017 03:37
Yes, primary electrical cord and plugs; you will make your own "extension" cords.
Parent - By Horence Date 08-01-2017 05:43
Read on this post. After reading the whole post, we can get solutions to deal with the trouble quickly and safely. Thanks for your nice sharing.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Advice on first TIG machine

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