Welder qualification documentation

Date 04-05-2019 18:01

I am assuming the code is AWS D1.1
#1, I would retest the welder and record the correct information according to Clause 4 (BeenThereDoneThat)
#2 see answer to #1
#3 No, 2F is reference to a Horizontal Fillet weld position, that should say "N/A"
#4 I often use the welder's initials and last 4 digits of the SS#, but it could be anything that identifies the welder within your company system.
#5 The actual parameters go in the first column, and the range or parameter that is allowed by the code goes in the second column.

Another issue that you may run into, as it bit me one time....The welder's who were certified by the deceased CWI may need to be retested unless you can vouch for their continuity from the time they were certified. Our CWI had passed away and I was tasked with his duties and position as Quality manager. One day I had a call asking about those continuity records for the guys who were previously certified under the other CWI. That CWI had been hired along with those welders when another plant in our area closed. He had certified those guys while employed at the other plant, therefore I could not vouch for their continuity while they were employed at that other plant. I spent an entire weekend retesting 18 welders in SMAW and FCAW.

By weldgrunt Date 04-05-2019 20:46

My bad yes it is to D1.1

Thank you for the info. The column description wasn't really specific so I had to ask.

Thank you for your time.

By 803056

Date 04-05-2019 21:29

It isn't bad manners to transfer his signature and stamp, it is fraud!

Leave the existing welder qualifications alone. If you want to transfer the data to a new format, fine, but attach the original WQTR to the new form. Sign and stamp the new paperwork with your signature and stamp, but recognize you are assuming responsibility for the tests. If you don't like the data, don't trust the data, or feel the existing forms are in error, retest the welders.

Al

By weldgrunt Date 04-06-2019 02:11

With all the errors on the document and the company owners instance that "It's just a piece of paper!" I didn't know if keeping all the data the same and electronically lifting the signature, stamp, and transferring it to a different format if that would be considered acceptable since the only thing to change in the scenario would be the paper it was written on. He may not want to have his welders tested again for something that he has continuity logs for. I will try to go the route of attaching the old copy to it provided he doesn't blow a head gasket about it. It's already been stated to me that the "Customers have no real idea what they are looking at" when he does show the proof of qualification.

I also have no desire to get fired for "being difficult, obstinate, or refusing to do work." Applying for new jobs it doesn't quite cut it when the HR person asks why did company A fire you? My response would have to be "I stood my ground and protected my integrity and ethics." It gets looked at as a cheap excuse for refusing to do work and when they do ask you to do something shady, and I have to make a stand again. The end result will be the same. Then the next employer will ask "Why did company B fire you?" and my response will be the same. At a certain point that would not be an excuse because there would be no way all these companies are corrupt and unethical. After all they have all been in business for many years and have great reputations. I would be looked at as a potential problem employee and disgruntled.

I currently have a similar issue. My previous multiple felony conviction bosses were asking me to do fraudulent things that I had to take a stand and find a new employer. Out of a reasonable belief I had a friend call as a prospective employer to check on my work history. Standing there listening to him on speaker phone blatantly breaking the laws regarding what information he is allowed to share in that situation. He made sure my work history inquiry would ensure my app would have been thrown into the trash. Not the first time in my less than glamorous 25 year career that I have had an employer threaten me with being penniless and in the streets unable to find work.

That is why I posted here to see what the real professionals had to say and get some outside guidance as to options and solutions that have not been suggested yet.

In the mean time I will continue looking for the unicorn employer that actually respects ethical standards and doesn't expect shady things to be done. Maybe you could send me an app for where you work?

On a different note where do I get a stamp?

By 803056

Date 04-06-2019 13:34

Let me ask one question: "Are you a CWI?"

If the answer is "No." Do as you feel fit. When you are caught falsifying legal documents, falsifying signatures, etc. you can find peace of mind in your jail cell knowing you did it just to keep a lousy job.

If your answer is "yes", find another occupation. As a CWI your career is going to be cut short if you are discovered doing some of the activities you are suggesting.

Al

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2019 16:51

Al,

I also would be uncomfortable cutting and pasting a CWI stamp.

But if he is simply making an “editorial” change in format for record keeping, would it be improper to simply record the test conductor CWI number for the new report and attach a PDF of the old one to satisfy any auditor?

So long as the continuity is correct, I don’t see any foul in such a method. It’s seems like transparent and honest way to update reporting format.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2019 17:02

I also prefer a test report format that separates signatures for tasks and roles.

1. Acceptance of visual

2. Acceptance of bends

3. Acceptance of RT

4. Authorization signature

Leave the authorization signature for your boss. It will make him feel important, and at the same time place the responsibility squarely where it belongs.

It’s clean and simple, doesn’t take a lawyer and looks professional for accreditation auditors.

By 803056

Date 04-06-2019 17:56 Edited 04-06-2019 18:06

I find this post very troubling for several reasons.

1) Lifting someone's signature and placing it on a different document is a crime in most states. I believe it is called forgery and one can do hard time if convicted of the crime.

2) Lifting the stamp and affixing it to a different document is also a misrepresentation of the individual's stamp and identity whether he's passed on or otherwise.

3) If the activities mentioned in this post were to take place and if this individual was a CWI, I would do my best to make sure he wasn't for much longer.

4) Making corrections, minor or otherwise, to a test record isn't something one would do without giving it careful consideration. If the entries are wrong, an assessment must be made whether the report is valid or not. There are acceptable ways of correcting a report that any CWI candidate learns if he is awake during the CWI seminar. If the entries are "that wrong", the test report is invalid. Test the welders again. It isn't just a piece of paper, it is a legal document.

5) "On a different note where do I get a stamp?", The short answer, study for the CWI, develop a sense of ethics, and pass the CWI examination.

I find this post very troubling on many counts. I would have a serious problem if I found out someone did what this individual is proposing with regards to the CWI's signature and stamp.

I hope the poster takes my comments to heart.

There are times and reasons when it is necessary to look for a new employment even if it is inconvenient. It is all part of being a professional. Many a CWI and quality personnel have found themselves in a situation where their sense of ethics was tested. Bend and the employer owns your soul.

Al

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2019 18:18

Maybe I was unclear... Or maybe you are not responding to me.

I asked you Al..... what you thought about simply making a new report and placing the name of the dead inspector and his CWI number on the new report... Truthful editorial change, noting the work done by the person and his CWI number which we assume was valid at the time of testing.

Rather than lifting the signature or stamp, just attach it to the new format or keep an "annex" folder attached to the new certs and not it in the quality manual.

I think the guy is just looking for an honest way to do his job.

Lifting signatures and stamps is not a good idea as you stated... I don't even lift my own...

By 803056

Date 04-06-2019 19:43 Edited 04-06-2019 20:05

Using a new format and typing in the deceased name is not a problem as long as someone is willing to sign the new form with their signature attesting to the validity of the information. Changing data entries is a different ball of wax.

What data is being "corrected"? The name of the welder that took the test, the test date, the electrode, the position, .......? Again, my position is that if the data was incorrect to the point it is being corrected several months or several years after the fact, I would question the validity of the test.

It doesn't sound as if this individual is a CWI, not that it matters, but is the "new" or "corrected" data any better than the original? Too many questions to give it a simple thumbs up.

I suggested that the original test report be attached to the "new and improved" form. I got the distinct impression that wasn't what the poster wanted to hear. A footnote at the bottom of the new form would go a long ways in identifying the reason for the new form and the absence of the test witness' signature and stamp.

Al

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-09-2019 11:11

Here is my response for what it is worth.

Questions...
#1. The CWI who performed the testing is currently departed from this world. The forms are asking for the size of the fillet weld made on a 2F test. That size was never recorded. What if any latitude am I allowed to say...put a minimum code size on the info line?

Answer 1: Not Recorded is all you can list, that was a mistake by the deceased and you cannot rectify. (do you have a test report that mentions the size ?)

#2. Is it considered some type of bad manners to transfer his name and signature and stamp onto the new document since he obviously cannot sign or stamp it currently? He administered the tests so I don't feel comfortable in trying to claim his work as mine.

Answer 2: As noted by Al and Lawrence it would be fraudulent to copy & paste names/signatures. As also noted by the guys, attach the original to your new certificate and make a note on your new certificate - please refer attachment.

#3. Is 2F really considered a vertical welding progression? That is what is listed on the document I am currently looking at.

Answer 3: Another mistake by the deceased - no problem. Is there a test report for the weld that notes position ? If so, list that on your new certificate. If not you need to investigate further - was it a typo ? Did other welders qualify the same day - what did theirs say ? What WPS were they following - vertical or horizontal ?

#4. On the AWS form it asks for ID# is that a reference to a SS#, or the stamp issued to the welder?

Answer 4: An ID # can be anything your company uses to identify that welder, a lot of companies issue a specific weld number to the welders, small companies may just use the welders initials.

#5. The form I am using asks for a qualification range in the second column. Is that where I would record the range of allowable settings for the test conducted?

Answer 5: The original welder certificate doesn't have a qualification range listed ? You should be just transferring this data from the old cert to the new cert. If not you will have to do yourself.

As for your current situation - you need to decide where you want to go in life.
As a CWI or someone who wants to be a CWI your most precious attribute is your integrity.
Lose that and you have nothing.
I have walked away from numerous jobs where they wanted me to be a "yes" man - stay in your office and don't go out inspecting.
I will never sign off on something I have never seen and this has caused some monumental bust-ups in the past.
Good luck with your future,
Shane

By 803056

Date 04-09-2019 12:39

Best response I've read Shane!

How are you and the family?

Al

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-09-2019 12:45

All good Al.
Been building a small water-park for the past 8 months so the fact I can't get a job hasn't really bothered me.
Will try and attach a shot of the 6 mtr Slide Tower I fabricated and welded for an 11 mtr water-slide.
Hope all is well for you and yours back in the US,
Cheers,
Shane

Attachment: IMG_8030.JPG (159k)

By 803056

Date 04-09-2019 12:50

Looks good!

Your kids will love it!

Al

By weldgrunt Date 04-14-2019 22:43

Lawrence and Shane get it. 803056 seems smart, but I question his reading comprehension. I am not trying to commit fraud, or break any laws in this process. I understood that questionable actions have been asked of me and I am asking what options I did have. I don't get paid enough to go through legal trouble for any employer and all I am looking for is an option that doesn't involve me doing any thing shady or illegal.

I can post more about this later I have things to take care of sorry.

By Steelslinger (**)

Date 04-15-2019 11:25

I think Al (803056) comprehended just fine. He gave you very good information and warning based on the scenario and questions you asked. You were the one that asked about lifting a deceased person's signature and stamp and putting it on new documentation. You wondered if it was 'bad form', he and others answered that it is indeed Fraud.

By 803056

Date 04-19-2019 13:37

I thought my responses were pretty unambiguous.

Al

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 04-19-2019 12:13

Some great responses already but I might as well ramble on a bit.

#1. There is nothing that you can do that alters a document signed by someone else.
#2.Manners are not a consideration. Fraud is
#3 People make mistakes on paperwork...Only they can fix those mistakes.
#4 There is no restriction or requirements in most codes for how a welder is identified but the most common requirement should be "unique". Other places besides welding forums would have information on what a SS number can and cannot be used for.
#5 The qualified ranges column is the location for the ranges of qualification as allowed by the applicable code/standard. The actual variables are used in conjunction with the code rules to establish what the range of qualification is.

If you are involved in welding inspection, at some time you will be faced with pressure to do something that may not feel right. You are the person that has to live with it. There are some advantages of welding vs. inspecting welds.